this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2024
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submitted 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) by Five to c/meta
 

As outlined in the SLRPNK Rules, any member of this instance can create communities, but doing so comes with responsibilities:

  • Active moderation of communities you create (you can add additional moderators yourself though)

  • Please add a community avatar and a basic side-bar text explaining what the community is about

  • Make a short introduction post to tell us a bit about yourself and why you created this community (this is mandatory!)

Occasionally we prune communities that do not meet these requirements. I’ve reached out to both current moderator accounts via PM, and neither GreatWhiteBuffalo41 or Justincase_2008@lemmy.world have replied or shown any activity on SLRPNK in 5 months or more. We often prune communities without public comment, but in this case we felt it deserved special mention.

A Brief History of Reddit's TwoXChromosomes

When Reddit started, its primary archetype was Slashdot, a site whose tagline was "News for Nerds" and whose format included voting on comments, user-assisted moderation, and user submitted stories for the admins to directly sign-off on, but the categories for posts were admin controlled. When Reddit started, one of its early communities was Programming, which remained a regular presence on the front page even after Reddit changed its architecture to allow user-created communities. Both Slashdot and to a lesser extent Reddit continue to be heavily male-dominated spaces and toxic to women. A common justification for this toxic dynamic was that there was something about STEM other than the male fragility, hostility, and domination that caused the lopsided representation.

Into this milieu appeared TwoXChromosomes - the name was catchy and immediately conjured both womanhood and tech-savvy, educated, nerdy fun. Posts from this community quickly became a regular fixture of Reddit's front page, demonstrating an outpouring of demand for a threaded discussion forum for women interested in technology and science.

But the victory was not effortless; complaining about 2XC became a favorite pastime for fragile men on the site. As their minority community grew, they had to constantly deal with men wanting to re-hash long-settled debates, have toxic masculinity personally explained to them, and other kinds of bad-faith engagement -- in addition to the undisguised harassment. 2XC instituted a heavy-handed (for the time) moderation policy that allowed men to participate, but only if they respected the community as a women's space. This represented one of the earliest and largest online spaces that participated in a larger discussion platform while protecting its minority members. For that reason 2XC was a trailblazer when it came to protected online spaces.

Is TwoXChromosomes Transphobic?

This was an early concern arising from the name, and the gender-essentialist attacks against transgender women. The early moderators of 2XC took the controversial (in 2008) stance that trans-women are women, and committed to be a trans-inclusive space. Trans-women were added as moderators, and trans-women's issues were frequently included in the topics of discussion. All women were shielded by the mods from male harassment, and trans-exclusionary women were not welcome.

Still, some trans-women and their allies felt excluded by the name, and for good reason. Defining femininity based on what chromosomes and how many one has is more than a dog-whistle - it's a naked form of aggression towards all women. But I'd argue that by normalizing "two x-chromosomes" as a synecdoche for all women rather than a bigoted attack, the community name is furthering the cause of transgender people.

How did the Fediverse's 2XC become unmoderated?

The activity-pub version of 2XC was created in June 2023 during the height of the first Reddit exodus. The creator established it with the intention of carrying on Reddit 2XC's legacy, and was soon joined by a mod from Reddit's 2XC. They were quickly challenged by members of the transgender community about the name, but most significantly, were overwhelmed by eager participation by inconsiderate men.

On Reddit, TwoXChromosomes typically is dominated by self-posts, where women are seeking validation from other women, or want to hear women's opinions on news or ideas. AP-2XC quickly became a place for men to come and seek validation from women, share their opinions on women's issues, or debate women about their opinions.

The original AP-2XC mods called out for additional moderators, but couldn't find women interested in sharing the responsibility to bring AP-2XC closer to the standards set by the original. Both mods have since returned to being active on Reddit.

Is the Fediverse hostile to women?

Yes, obviously. But not more than Slashdot, Reddit, or other similar platforms. I hope in the future on this platform or somewhere else in the Fediverse, a group of women will pick up the mantle of 2XC again and build a community better than its template. This set-back should serve as a reminder that the fight for women's spaces online isn't over. They require above-average tending by committed moderators, or any new minority space is likely to experience the same fate.

As admins, we procrastinated longer than we probably should have to close AP-2XC. We had hoped that it would find new champions, and could eventually make a full recovery. We were hesitant to step in and moderate in their stead, based on the land-mines inherent in men trying to moderate women's spaces.

Leaving the 2XC unmoderated creates a situation where new female participants are quickly chased away by the heavy male participation, and each new visitor is given the false impression that SLRPNK, (or worse) the Fediverse, is devoid of women. Both Blahaj.zone and Beehaw have done a great job of creating protected spaces for women, and are pushing for more moderators and better software support to improve their record. At SLRPNK, we're eager to also create healthy spaces for women, and are talking over XMPP about the best way to move forward with that.

Watch here for updates

We usually close unmoderated communities, but in the case of TwoXChromosomes, we plan to disable public posting and lock all threads. New participants will be redirected to this thread, and when the situation changes, we will post here with updates.

I'd like to thank the Activity Pub-2XC moderators for attempting this task, and for choosing SLRPNK as the place to try it. I'd also like to thank the women and non-binary people who participated in our disappointing simulacrum of 2XC despite its failings, and to men from SLRPNK and other more progressive corners of the Fediverse, who I feel helped push back against the waves of toxic and less enlightened men who dominated the community.

We're always looking for more moderators from among SLRPNK members, and there are a number of other communities that are undermoderated. If you enjoy a community’s existence, consider joining the XMPP chat on Movim, people are eager to accept whatever help you can give.

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[–] punkisundead 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Tbh I think that 2xc should never be opened again after we close it. Instead we could redirect people to other communities that focus on womens issues, perspectives and that succeed in creating a welcoming enviroments for women. Additionally maybe provide helpful links and ressources for those that want to start their own vision of a community that center women. (i would be willing to contribute to that)

I am really happy to leave that name behind, hopefully for good.

[–] SharkEatingBreakfast@sopuli.xyz 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Where? Where?

I want a good lady-centric discussion community, but can't find anything active or non-brigaded.

[–] spaduf 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

In my experience even the communities that look dead can usually be revived with a little bit of regular posting. Thinking specifically of !women@lemmy.world and !feminism@beehaw.org

[–] punkisundead 3 points 8 months ago

Tbh I did not check because those community are not that interesting to me and I just saw 2Xc sometimes in my local timeline.

I know the trans femme community can count on the moderation of the blahaj admins, but from the top of my head I dont know of any community thats a general "lady-centric discussion community". I hope to find that though.

[–] LibertyLizard 12 points 8 months ago (5 children)

Unfortunate the way things worked out with this. Thanks for the explanation.

I’m surprised that there was no one interested in modding. It seemed there was a fair amount of activity. I already assumed Lemmy was predominantly male but I wonder just how skewed it is?

[–] schmorpel 13 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I had briefly considered modding it but it was already quite obviously a space tending towards the toxic, and I really didn't feel up to the task. Now I also didn't really even know about its history from back over at reddit, and how big it was- thanks @Five@slrpnk.net for the summary!

I am very interested in creating safe spaces for women online, and would happily support a less history-heavy, suffering-from-several-controversies kind of space.

Getting hung up on names isn't always helpful, even though we are here because of 'reddit' and its '2XC' space for women. We can create something inspired in that, or based on what we would do better, and name it whatever we like. I remember the name was chosen a bit in the hope to attract more people over from reddit, but I believe that 'attracting a lot of people' hasn't really been the focus of SLRPNK since quite a while in a sense that quality is more important than quantity.

[–] disgruntledbroad@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

I don't blame you for not wanting to mod a sequel to 2XC. I agree it would be cool to see something a bit lighter than what that place turned into, felt more about controversy than connection or support.

[–] LibertyLizard 4 points 8 months ago

Yeah I agree a better name would be good for a future community. At the time I thought the momentum of the name would be important for the community to succeed in establishing itself but since that wasn’t successful anyway it’s probably best to start from scratch.

I hope someone comes along to create it but it’s not really something I would be well equipped to start. I can barely keep my one community going even though it’s of much greater interest and connection to me personally.

[–] punkisundead 7 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

already assumed Lemmy was predominantly male but I wonder just how skewed it is?

Lemmy.ca did a survey that gives us a glimpse into that.

87% reporting as male gender, 7% as female and 6% combined as non-binary, genderfluid, other, of the users who opted to answer the question.

Thanks to @Rentlar@lemmy.ca for mentioning that in a recent thread.

[–] LibertyLizard 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Oh wow that is definitely more skewed than I expected. Too bad. Is that just reflective of the techy crowd here or is there something else at play?

[–] SharkEatingBreakfast@sopuli.xyz 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Spaces being hostile toward women also attribute to that.

I would not recommend Lemmy to more women because of that alone.

[–] LibertyLizard 5 points 8 months ago

I haven’t directly observed that (at least not more than other online spaces) but I was afraid that might be the answer. I’ll have to think on how we as users can help make that better in some way.

[–] Stern@lemmy.world 4 points 8 months ago

I’m surprised that there was no one interested in modding. It seemed there was a fair amount of activity.

Everyone wants the roses but no one wants to weed the garden, or something like that.

[–] punkisundead 2 points 8 months ago

The currently unactive mods started a call for more mods. Maybe they never got to look through the applications and/or no one applied.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 0 points 8 months ago (1 children)

There were people asking to take over the sub months ago but the admins said no. Also a lot of drama over the transphobic name. I got pulled into the whole issue by a Blahaj user and saw a couple posts about it. I might PM that person and tell them about this.

[–] Five 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

The only person who asked us to take over the community was a well-known troll who has been banned from both Beehaw and Blahaj.zone. Their expressed intention was to shut it down.

[–] cacheson@kbin.social 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

HardlightCereal seemed more like a crank than a troll, to me. Cranks are by definition at least somewhat annoying, and tend to get mistaken for and treated as trolls. They're not malicious the way trolls are though, and can be a positive influence. I think them drawing attention to this particular issue was a good thing, at least.

[–] Five 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

They've been on our radar for a while. I think if you could see the bigger picture of their body of work, you'd have a different opinion.

[–] cacheson@kbin.social 1 points 8 months ago

Possibly. I've seen comments from them here and there in various places, but it's true that I haven't had the responsibility of moderating them like you have.

[–] schmorpel 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I just learned a new internet term today, yay! Crank.

[–] cacheson@kbin.social 1 points 8 months ago

I think it's actually a pretty old term. Definitely useful for the internet era though, now that we end up coming into contact with many more "interesting" characters than in the old days. xD

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)

That's a pretty good intention. If taking bioessentialist slogans out of the feminist movement is your definition of trolling, then I'm very confused.

[–] poVoq 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

As you can see, we admins are perfectly capable of shutting it down once other options are sufficiently considered. It would have been pointless to hand it over to someone else to shut it down.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

Well, a lot of us are grateful that you eventually shut it down. Thank you.

[–] LibertyLizard 2 points 8 months ago

I was opposed to the request even though the name was problematic. It wasn’t done in the right way and didn’t have the support of the community at the time. It doesn’t make sense to allow an outsider to come in and shut down a community in opposition to those who were using it, even if they have a valid critique or concern. Especially since the community always stated that it was open to Trans women, I think a better approach would be to build consensus about the harm that the name was doing so that users could come up with and support an alternative. Just shutting it down without even attempting to build an alternative came across as hostile and authoritarian.

It’s unfortunate that that’s what happened anyway but with no mods it may be the least bad option.

[–] disgruntledbroad@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Honestly pretty amped that terfy name is finally being laid to rest.

I moved to Reddit after the sale of Tumblr years back. Now, fired Reddit for similar reasons and I'm here. Gotta say in my experience so far on Lemmy feels miles less noxious to women than Reddit was in those days, (or kinda at any point since lol). And I've seen far more women and queer folk comfortably hanging out.

Course that's just me, I'm not very savvy, but for real, it was clear by the time I got here so much work had already been done to make everyone feel at home. Thank you so much

[–] hazeebabee 3 points 8 months ago

I second this. I think there quite a few welcoming and comfortable spaces & while I always welcome more, id be happy for that particular name to never be used again.

Unrelated: I had the same journey getting here lol tumblr to reddit to lemmy. Lemmy is def more queer/female friendly than reddit, tho not as much as early tumblr.

[–] Five 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)