Never trust a rant from a person that can't install Windows.
this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2024
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Yeah I'm skeptical. Having installed windows on a machine that I put together about a year ago, it was pretty straightforward. Yeah I needed to install the drivers, but that didn't take long. Maybe windows 11 is much more tortured than 10 though, which is what I installed.
I think most people are just used to Window's BS, so these issues are just expected and they know how to fix them.
Linux has an easier experience getting up and running, but when they have an issue, usually it's something completely different from what they have experienced before and get frustrated.
This is why mainline OEMs shipping computers with Linux by default will be a huge step forward.
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Does installing XP count? I might tolerate that.
Can't bring myself to install the latest few and select "no, do not spy on me" 7 thousand times. They will spy somehow as it's proprietary - god knows what it's actually doing.
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14 days ago I tested Ubuntu. I couldn’t access my Wifi. The network was visible, but it refused to accept the password. (Yes, I quintuple-checked that I entered it right.) When I tried Linux Mint, it worked on the first try.
Moral of the story: Drivers are hit-and-miss on Linux, too.
Only moral I got from this was to never use Ubuntu lmao
all hail latest kernel modules, and akmod/dkms
Yes. There are no reasons to use Ubuntu nowadays. If you are on that track, skip to mint or mx linux.
Hrm, but shouldn't Linux Mint, being based on Ubuntu, have basically the same drivers?
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That reminds me of an issue I had when I was installing Mint. I tried out a live boot first and everything seemed to work except there was no internet connection. Turns out my WiFi card needs a proprietary driver, but no big deal it installed easily enough just from the boot disk. Internet's working, all looks good, so I go ahead and install Mint proper, remove the live boot usb, start the system, and savour that new Minty smell. But hang on, there's no WiFi, I forgot to install the driver! Should be an easy enough fix though, it wasn't hard last time.
So I go to install the driver and the first thing it says is that it needs the boot disk to get the driver. That makes total sense, can't install something you don't have! I plug in the usb again and now it should all be plain sailing, after all it's just installing a driver that worked 20 minutes ago, right? Sadly no, that would be too easy; for some reason now it's missing dependencies! Or something along those lines anyway, I forget exactly. But can't it just install those from the boot disk? Well apparently not, it instead tries to connect to the internet to download them. This obviously fails since I don't have a WiFi connection, which is why I'm installing the driver in the first place. All I get is a popup saying it can't install some stuff because there's no internet connection, fix that to get your internet connection. This is the point where face meets palm. I'm sure there's some fiddly "proper" way to work around that but the thing is I'm incredibly lazy so I'll just take the quick option instead. I plug in my phone and use a tethered connection. I run the install again and it finally goes through, at last the system is ready to use! It's been mostly smooth sailing since then (though I did get annoyed enough at NTFS a couple of months ago that I just reformatted a data drive and wiped a ton of data I probably didn't need).
Tl;dr: I had to tether to my phone for a minute. Traumatising!
Drivers for desktops are pretty much a non-issue on Windows, in fact, most will be installed via the internet before you even boot the desktop for the first time.
Drivers for gaming laptops are a nightmare on Windows, and you'll probably have to chase weird slow pages in the manufacturer's website to perhaps find 4 packages that might contain the driver you want.
I have clean installed windows on a lot of gaming laptops. Most of the time windows updates pulls in every driver for you if windows have the correct wifi driver to begin with. If it doesn't i just download wifi driver on my phone and transfer it.
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Wi-Fi drivers don't exist
They absolutely exist, but perhaps isn't part of the installer.
Every single driver needed sourcing and installing.
Windows Update solves 95% of that automatically these days, as long as you have internet it will sort it out for you.
Plug in my sound card OK it's a bit old now UA-25 but nothing happens.
This an external USB sound card from 2004, Roland has drivers for it working on Windows 98/ME/XP/2000/Vista/7/8/8.1 it is a 20 year old card, it awesome that it works on Linux, but you can't blame Roland or Microsoft for not supporting a 20 year old device on the latest versions of the OS.
OK plug in wheel again not new stuff G25 oh it works cool. Oh, no H-shifter OK download driver. "Can't find device, ensure it's plugged in". Windows decided it knew better, downloaded its own driver that blocks the official one and loads the steering wheel as a gamepad...GG cool cool.
You are whining about a modern OS not being compatible with a 18 year old steering wheel? You can't expect indefinite hardware support for every random little device you happen to find, this like the sound card above is on you, not Microsoft.
I do not understand why we still have this image that Windows is noob friendly.
None of the above quoted examples are noob issues, this is like you are talking to a person in old english from the mideval times and being mad that a random guy in the middle of Londing in 2024 can't understand you.
A noob would realize that their devices were too old and buy new devices.
Windows is noob friendly in that most software have a Windows version, most people use it, it is a known variable.
Like it or not, Windows is the defacto standard, and that means that is it safe in the perspective of a noob user.
I am saying all of this as an IT guy who has worked professionally with both Linux and Windows, I ran Linux as my main OS for a year or two, I LIKE Linux, but this is not fair critisism of Windows.
It’s concerning that you think “just buy new stuff” is reasonable and that Windows should only work on new hardware out of the box.
It's concerning that you insinuate that 20 year old hardware just works in Linux.
Just because a 20 year old sound card happens to work in your favorite Linux distro doesn't in any way mean that it will work forever or that there are drivers for all 20 year old soundcards.
Where does it say that it's not allowed to create a Windows driver for a 20 year old soundcard?
This is the reality of the computer industry, you don't have to like it, but you have to expect it and work within the reality of the industry.
If OP had complained about how their 10 or 5 year old devices didn't work, then they might have had a point, but 20 years old? That is unresonable.
Yes, the reality of the computer industry is that the industry changes. That has quite the dual meaning. I want it to mean it changes for the better...ahem....Open Source
If people want to use a working twenty year old device, it is completely reasonable to complain that Windows doesn't allow that - because that is where Linux STANDS ON ITS OWN MERITS
And still, it is usually possible to get the 20 y/o hardware to run in windows. It might need a bit of trickery but in essence, windows has changed so little under the hood, in the last 20 years…
Recently I acquired a 20 year old film scanner. I had the choice of either buying a new third party scanner software for 100€ or just get the old one working. I found some script that made the old driver identify as something newer and it installed without a problem and has been working since. (Or rather it has worked until recently, when I switched to linux anyways because I want to use the pc for gaming exclusively, since for work related stuff, I have a Mac)
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"Just buy new stuff" is the mindset of the perpetually boring and uncreative. Break shit and build better stuff.
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Happy to see lemmy linux community not blindly hating windows and providing facts. Also you can use a package manager like choco to install apps from terminal so you dont have deal with clicking next.
Treating Windows unfairly in these kinds of comparisons is a disservice to Linux as it implies that Linux can't win in a fair comparison.
Windows/Linux/MacOS are all best at different things and for different persons, let the best OS for the task and person win on a fair test
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You should expect the creator to abandon the device eventually but indefinite hardware support is possible - that's why it's important that drivers be open source. If enough people care to use the device then a community can be created around it to support it on whatever OS they want.
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Thanks for the post, interesting.
I do not understand why we still have this image that Windows is noob friendly, it’s such a convoluted obfuscated process to do anything.
Microsoft has been ~~blackmailing~~ pushing computer hardware companies for a long time to have Windows bundled with computers. Your story has now enlightened me why they did so all these years :)
Windows and MacOS are “noob-friendly” for those who use them for simple purposes and out-of-the-box. As soon as you want to do something more advanced, you’re back to googling and installing software from a variety of sources.
Many linux distros are like that too (others are just not noob-friendly at all), but centralized package management and documentation are nice.
I’m really glad to be away from registry editing, 50 app icons in the tray, and navigating my way through settings to control panel so I can actually fix my audio devices or network options.
I’m on Arch now, so I still have plenty of configuration and software, but I know the systems and choose explicitly which ones I use. If something isn’t working or is annoying, it’s my fault.
Huh? I'm all for d***riding on Linux but this is a weird case. I've not had a single issue with windows on gaming laptops even across multiple reinstalls. They're all automatically installed soon after you boot. Just need to wait through a few updates.
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Blame the oems, dell ships dell OS with windows branding.
Upon installation, Wi-Fi drivers don’t exist, so you cannot use the internet while installing if you’re on Wi-Fi.
This is a good thing with modern Windows. You don't want it online while it's installing, you want to install, lock things down a bit and then connect.
Unless you’re using one of the more recent Win11 builds, where you won’t be able to finish OOBE without an internet connection unless you had the foresight to patch the installer beforehand.
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I've installed Windows on a system I've built myself, and I've had so many problems...
Firstly, did you know what Windows doesn't allow you to install it on a partition that isn't the first one on the drive (under certain circumstances)? It also doesn't give you sensible error messages that that's the problem.
I also had to install audio drivers from the disk that came with my motherboard (the ones on the website didn't work).
I don't know if this was this system or some other one, but I've faced the whole "no network card drivers so can't download network card drivers" issue.
Recently I made the controversial decision of booting Windows with an external drive plugged in, so it decided to reorder my device letter mappings and break a bunch of shortcuts.
And of course, there's no resource like the arch wiki, so you're basically left on your own to fix things.
Windows may or may not be easier to use, but it certainly isn't easier to install and fix.
Windows and Linux have opposite problems for starters with newer hardware better supported on Windows and old hardware supported on Linux. As Linux gets more popular, it will start to shine because if newer hardware becomes better supported, the experience will truly be that Linux just works and Windows needs drivers for done stuff.
The other big factor is that Windows is already installed. So, you don’t have to do anything or, at most, one or two things. Even if that one thing is hard, you are more likely to blame that one thing than Windows.
Finally, we have to acknowledge that your experience sounds atypical for Windows installs. Most of my hardware is easier to put Linux on than Windows but I doubt any of them would be that hard.
We also have to admit that Linux does not have drivers for everything while Windows basically does ( somewhere ). So, Linux can be the bigger bummer overall. Of course, this is in the x86-64 universe only. Linux has vastly better hardware support when you consider other platforms.
This is mostly an Acer issue I think. A decent vendor will have a software package or even their website that will handle updating your drivers.
Surprise! They virtually all do, but they didn't look.
I often get shattered by windows users how hard it is to install Nvidia drivers or get it to work.
Like. Idk why they are like this or how I should tell them otherwise. But they will give me a response of their experience as proof of how hard it is.
I mean. Its even pteinstalled on some distros so wtf.
From what I got online that computer has either an Intel or MediaTek PCIe Wifi card, both of them should be supported out of the box by Windows. Also you aren't required to install GPU drivers manually, just run Windows Update and it will pull the driver including the Nvidia panel for you.
I do not understand why we still have this image that Windows is noob friendly, it’s such a convoluted obfuscated process to do anything.
Because it is as long as you don't fuck things up because you think you know better. Just use Windows update to pull GPU drivers... or download what Acer says is for your computer on their support page... cheap ass hardware that shouldn't even be on the market doesn't help either.
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I can't say I've ever had this experience with installing drivers on Windows. Is it as smooth and centralized as Linux? No, but it's generally just go to manufacturers website, find product, find support page, locate drivers, download/install, rinse and repeat. Never had to go watch videos that led me to a partial install of drivers for an outdated Windows version. If WiFi doesn't work, use USB tethering from your phone. The laptop will act like it's connected to Ethernet (this at least lets you go to the Acer website to find the right WiFi drivers for your laptop).
Also never had Cortana bother me during setup. You can always skip all that extra crap. Last time I installed Win10 was to update my NVidia GPU firmware and it took 10 minutes.
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Every single driver needed sourcing and installing.
Windows update on W11 will pull basically everything automatically, with the exception of some older proprietary hardware (a lot of gaming and sound devices have really screwed up drivers for example).
Drivers are extremely hit or miss on Linux too especially for anything new, and manually installing some driver is incredibly frustrating since you can't just run an exe and be done.
People have the cheek to complain about Linux’s Nvidia install, literally two clicks on most distros if it isn’t already baked in. Go to website find driver, download click click click agree click wait more software click click wait.
It's the same on windows, go to nvidia website and download the driver and install.
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We are improving your experience. Please do not resist.
Actually, both Ubuntu and Mint didn't have wifi drivers for my late-2014 Mac Mini (Intel based). I had to plugin ethernet so I could actually download the drivers. Also, the version of Windows you might have installed might have been older than your PC, so no drivers would naturally be in it (e.g. Win11 is already 2-3 years old).
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Don't get your Linux packages from random websites. That's bad practice at best
Amen.
Sounds like a user problem. Installing windows should take 30 minutes tops.
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