Unfortunately it's not the people here that need to read this
this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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In this community? It's useful for talking points
Lemmy in general? There's a lot of people on Lemmy who need to read this.
It might help someone explain it later though, it's a good parallel
You’d be surprised how widespread misunderstanding of systemic racism is, even on the left.
... did you just straight-up post a reddit comment?
Aaand? People always sent screenshots of posts from other social media on social media. Nothing new.
Yes, lol.
But in my defense, I’ve had this saved on my phone for over a year, and I probably got it from /r/196 to begin with :p
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Well how else am I gonna read it? Open it on reddit???
yeah, at the very least have a decency to crop the r***t UI.
If you think that the problems (inequalities) racism brought ceased to exist with segregation, try learning about red-lining and how countless black neighborhoods got unfairly bulldozed to make space for highways. All that stuff happened only a lifetime ago, of course its effects can still be felt today.
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You could also use the same reasoning to argue that colonialism hasn't really ended either, when the colonialists went home they still left behind the scars of centuries of exploitation, that shit doesn't get washed away in a day.
Wells Fargo to pay $175 million in race discrimination probe - Reuters (2012) And let's not forget stuff like this happened just within the last 15 years.
Damn this is an excellent example. I'm 100% going to use this image in the future, thanks!
My mother worked for a real estate firm in the late 90s in bay ridge, Brooklyn where she was told to tell anyone calling in who sounded black or had a "black sounding name" that nothing was available or to quote ridiculous prices.
This shit ain't gone away at all.
The analogy is a little shaky but yeah that's a pretty good intro. The hard issue to solve here is with how this injustice is resolved. I think the most reasonable solution attacks the problem directly: rewriting racist laws (like zoning) and punishing or heavily disincentivising racist behavior in government officials (including police and judges). In the analogy, this would be equivalent to enacting hotel policies against discrimination and retrofitting disabled-accessible options into the building.
That still isn't directly Attacking the problem, you remove racist laws however you still have a system in place to add oppressive laws so they will come back. The problem isn't the laws or the government officials it's the whole damn system and unless you change the system it will continue to oppress. The hotel is designed to be discriminatory and to slowly go back to being discriminatory (as you said shaky anlogy) if changes are to be made. The only real solution is tearing the whole hotel down and building a park there
What view are they trying to counter here? I understand all the words of the post and I agree with the logic but I don't see in what situation this argument is useful. Perhaps I'm lucky not to have been exposed to the people for whom it would be useful...
Edit: I saw some very clear answers to my questions after scrolling down a bit. I think I just didn't understand what the term "systemic" meant here.
"wow you are trying to punish x people for wrongdoings of their parents/grandparents" is the argument it's trying to counter.
But on top of that, the previous owner raised the new one. On top of the hotel issue we now have the same issues, but with the new owner
Oh that's neat!
It's different with racism, because it's easier and cheaper to stop racist practices than it is to modify a building. And modifying a building isn't hard or all that expensive.
Yeah that's why we need to fight harder
Like what?
You want examples of systemic racism?
- Poverty is inherited and it's impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Black people in America are poor because they used to be slaves
- White cultural traditions are legal in Australia. Many aboriginal cultural traditions have been made illegal in Australia due to land ownership changes
- Black people are under-represented in universities, so the university scientists building facial recognition apps aren't building them to work on black people
- Schools teach their lessons in english. Multilingual students who don't speak english at home often have a disadvantage in lessons that will be felt their whole lives
- Children of illegal immigrants may have never received identification such as a birth certificate and it can be hard to get this as an adult
- Whenever the police use robotic and computer systems to detect criminals the AI ends up racial profiling and harassing black people
Poverty is inherited and it's impossible to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Black people in America are poor because they used to be slaves
That's capitalism's fault. Poor white kids would face the same issues.
Black people are under-represented in universities, so the university scientists building facial recognition apps aren't building them to work on black people
That's just a lack of data points and not a system constructed by anyone. The data points should be increasing naturally.
Schools teach their lessons in english. Multilingual students who don't speak english at home often have a disadvantage in lessons that will be felt their whole lives
It'd be awesome if we can just solve language barriers generally. Before we can do that having a single official language in working situations seems to be not avoidable for productivity.
Children of illegal immigrants may have never received identification such as a birth certificate and it can be hard to get this as an adult
Not related to racism.
Whenever the police use robotic and computer systems to detect criminals the AI ends up racial profiling and harassing black people
Is this happening? I think it's straight out wrong to predict criminals with AI trained on previous data.
All in all I agree that many of the existing systems sucks but I don't think it's helpful to link every problem to racism. Disclaimer: I'm not black or white
That’s just a lack of data points and not a system constructed by anyone. The data points should be increasing naturally.
But why is the data lacking in the first place?
Lack of public black faces as suggested by previous comment? That's not a "system" tho, which would imply something like a policy to reject black faces as learning data.
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That’s capitalism’s fault. Poor white kids would face the same issues.
True, but that's not what the discussion was about. Black kids are disproportionately poorer than white kids, and that's because they inherited inequalities from the past, which came about because of slavery and systematic racism.
It’d be awesome if we can just solve language barriers generally. Before we can do that having a single official language in working situations seems to be not avoidable for productivity
What you are suggesting is a lingua franca, which is already the norm in multilingual countries. That's quite different from having a colonial language dominating over the others.
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Is this happening
There are a bunch of articles about it. Here's one about it in general
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/technology/artificial-intelligence-google-bias.html
And one with a few examples of ai used in criminal justice
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/5-algorithms-that-demonstrate-artificial-intelligence-bias/
Schools teach their lessons in english.
When you have to pick a language to teach in, isn't this the best language to teach in though, in a predominantly English speaking society?
I don't think segregating classes into separate language-based ones would be a good idea. That leaves kids not speaking English at home nor at school in an even bigger disadvantage in terms of learning English and we need we need kids of all different backgrounds mixing together so that they may understand and accept one another.
The solution are extra English lessons for both the kids and the parents, and financial support so that the parents can afford the time to learn English at these classes
That's a good solution, yes.
Though good luck convincing governments, that continue to cut funding for important social programs like these, to bother supporting minorities in schools.
When you have to pick a language to teach in, isn’t this the best language to teach in though, in a predominantly English speaking society?
And how did that society become predominantly English speaking? You just highlighted the point OOP was making.
English (and French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc) became dominant by pushing the native languages on the brink of extinction through systematic racism. So now that the damage is done, instead of fixing it, we just carry on and deny kids the right to receive an education in their native language? (Speeding up the rate of extinction)
I'm from the UK, we are the natives here.
Though, I would agree in the UK when it comes to other native languages under threat, like Scottish Gaelic and Welsh.
However, I still think in any English speaking country, proficient English is the most important thing a child can learn in order to thrive in modern society. And separating children of different languages is not a good thing, it only makes racism worse. Instead, we should focus on lessons and programs that teach other native languages, to preserve them, and also teach English to those that don't speak it at home.
Teaching and preservation programs have worked well for Welsh and the language is growing once again.
I'd add for the "school in English/dominant spoken language" part (because compared to the other it doesn't seem that bad) in a quite a few cases it stems from a previous active effort to suppress a culture that was never really 'fixed', not simply just "eh I don't understand so why do I have to cater for it?".
If you're European, chances are you can name a good few examples that happened in your borders, both as something you did or something that was used against you
People are still fighting welsh in schools
Poverty: Same thing for any people of any race the most important part is their ability to get an education that'll get them out of it while having stability, slavery has nothing to do with it.
Australia: I live in Australia what are you talking about?!
Black people are up to 4 times more likely to be accepted in American medical universities due to diversity quotas https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med.png
Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!
It makes sense that the government doesn't want to encourage illegal immigration.
So facial recognition doesn't work on black people but ai facial recognition can discriminate against them?
Seriously it seems that your taking all this out of your imagination.
Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!
Over here we have schools which teach completely in Danish and hand out both German and Danish graduation papers, we have schools offering native-level classes in Frisian... Frisians don't really care about more they've always been bilingual. Even more so our Sinti, they don't want to see the language in schools at all but teach it inside the family, they've also always been bilingual. Frankly speaking we're doing more for our autochthone minorities language-wise than we do for ourselves, which would be protecting Low Saxon against the steady onslaught of Standard German.
But, no, we won't start teaching whatever Portuguese just because you arrived here recently and speak Portuguese. Best results are achieved when kids learn the majority language in kindergarten, on the playground, in school, while still speaking their parent's native language at home as that ensures that they're learning both languages properly. It's a matter of experience: Back in the 60s Turkish parents were told to speak German with their kids at home and the result was that the kids learned broken German and their Turkish sucks. That's not just a matter of not knowing those two languages properly as they never learned any languages properly there's measurable developmental delays.
Transposing that to America you should have plenty of schools teaching in native languages. Of course don't mandate everything being taught like that as that would segregate minorities, but things like maths in English and history in Lakota or whatever make perfect sense.
Circling back to black folks: It's high time AAVE is recognised as a proper variety of English. None of that "you're doing grammar wrong", or (in courts) "we'll pretend that you speak Standard English thus not provide a translator, then misunderstand you (tenses and aspects be hard) and lock you up based on that". If a decent number of your students speak AAVE natively it'd also be high time to teach its grammar on a native level, that can happen in ordinary English classes it's, after all, English.
So facial recognition doesn’t work on black people but ai facial recognition can discriminate against them?
Bias in data is always a problem. Take me: I have legs. I'm a man. Supposedly, when I buy trousers made for men they should fit me but all the data that clothing designers have seems to indicate all men are storks so I have to buy trousers for overweight people and then hem ass and waist. And I don't even fucking work out. Soap dispenser doesn't work for you because noone ever bothered to test it on black skin? Same shit just affecting a historically oppressed minority. Personally I wouldn't even call it an issue as it tends to get sorted out very quickly once the bias is spotted, unlike my issue which noone seems to care about because y'all are fucking storks.
As to the police thing: No it's really an issue in the US and it's not systemic racism it's plain racism. Policy makers know all too well that overpolicing breeds crime yet they do it and then say "we need to overpolice even more because black people do so much crime".
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And yet black people only make up 7% of med school matriculants. Given that roughly 14% of the us population is black, this indicates a systemic issue preventing black people from achieving a level of educetion to even apply to med school.
Meanwhile, white people have entry rates as expected for their proportion of the general population, and asian applicants have entry rates twice what you would expect: 12% of the population is taking 22% of the seats.
These numbers are American, but thats also the country where "diversity quotas" are an issue. What we can see from the outcomes is that the opportunity is given out unequally from the very beginning, and thus even with an entrance process with a bias towards black people, the system as a whole is so biased against black people that half as many are able to participate
Poverty: Same thing for any people of any race the most important part is their ability to get an education that’ll get them out of it while having stability, slavery has nothing to do with it.
Whataboutism. Black people are poor exactly because they descend from slaves. When the slaves got freed, most of them were destined to poverty, and poverty is inherited under capitalism.
Australia: I live in Australia what are you talking about?!
About all the aboriginals that went through genocide, both physically and culturally, for about 200 years?
Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!
Yes, monolingual countries are mostly a thing only in the western world. Most of the world is multilingual, and it has been for most of human history. And there's a big difference between having a lingua franca and being dominated by a colonial language.
Jerry mandering
Someone should tell Jerry to stop that
Does a business owner need to accommodate disabled people? Answer in your own opinion
Yes
By law, yes, because you people wouldn't never account for any kind of minority unless if forced.
Y'all wouldn't return the cart unless to recover the coin. There's people beating up rough sleepers. People are intrinsically selfish
Not all people are intrinsically selfish. Most people return the cart.
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The only reasonable reason why not, would be that it would be impossible to do so. If you are physically able to add those accomodations and not doing it then well you are a bigot that makes people's lives more difficult on purpose.
Idk who has to pay, are you trying to say old families that had slaves in any country and it can be proven they did should have to pay? So much shit that's happened in history has had no reparations.
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