this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
975 points (100.0% liked)
196
16459 readers
2168 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You want examples of systemic racism?
That's capitalism's fault. Poor white kids would face the same issues.
That's just a lack of data points and not a system constructed by anyone. The data points should be increasing naturally.
It'd be awesome if we can just solve language barriers generally. Before we can do that having a single official language in working situations seems to be not avoidable for productivity.
Not related to racism.
Is this happening? I think it's straight out wrong to predict criminals with AI trained on previous data.
All in all I agree that many of the existing systems sucks but I don't think it's helpful to link every problem to racism. Disclaimer: I'm not black or white
But why is the data lacking in the first place?
Lack of public black faces as suggested by previous comment? That's not a "system" tho, which would imply something like a policy to reject black faces as learning data.
You're way too smart for this site, I thought reddit echo chambers were bad
True, but that's not what the discussion was about. Black kids are disproportionately poorer than white kids, and that's because they inherited inequalities from the past, which came about because of slavery and systematic racism.
What you are suggesting is a lingua franca, which is already the norm in multilingual countries. That's quite different from having a colonial language dominating over the others.
Lingua franca is a language that 2 groups speaking a different language both understand, English is a lingua franca.
It makes sense to teach in 2 languages when bit percentages of the population speak them, in the case of America teaching native American language would be pointless for the children aside from preventing the language from dying
There are a bunch of articles about it. Here's one about it in general
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/technology/artificial-intelligence-google-bias.html
And one with a few examples of ai used in criminal justice
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/5-algorithms-that-demonstrate-artificial-intelligence-bias/
https://lemmy.world/post/3768607
More badly trained AI.
When you have to pick a language to teach in, isn't this the best language to teach in though, in a predominantly English speaking society?
I don't think segregating classes into separate language-based ones would be a good idea. That leaves kids not speaking English at home nor at school in an even bigger disadvantage in terms of learning English and we need we need kids of all different backgrounds mixing together so that they may understand and accept one another.
The solution are extra English lessons for both the kids and the parents, and financial support so that the parents can afford the time to learn English at these classes
That's a good solution, yes.
Though good luck convincing governments, that continue to cut funding for important social programs like these, to bother supporting minorities in schools.
And how did that society become predominantly English speaking? You just highlighted the point OOP was making.
English (and French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc) became dominant by pushing the native languages on the brink of extinction through systematic racism. So now that the damage is done, instead of fixing it, we just carry on and deny kids the right to receive an education in their native language? (Speeding up the rate of extinction)
I'm from the UK, we are the natives here.
Though, I would agree in the UK when it comes to other native languages under threat, like Scottish Gaelic and Welsh.
However, I still think in any English speaking country, proficient English is the most important thing a child can learn in order to thrive in modern society. And separating children of different languages is not a good thing, it only makes racism worse. Instead, we should focus on lessons and programs that teach other native languages, to preserve them, and also teach English to those that don't speak it at home.
Teaching and preservation programs have worked well for Welsh and the language is growing once again.
I'd add for the "school in English/dominant spoken language" part (because compared to the other it doesn't seem that bad) in a quite a few cases it stems from a previous active effort to suppress a culture that was never really 'fixed', not simply just "eh I don't understand so why do I have to cater for it?".
If you're European, chances are you can name a good few examples that happened in your borders, both as something you did or something that was used against you
People are still fighting welsh in schools
Poverty: Same thing for any people of any race the most important part is their ability to get an education that'll get them out of it while having stability, slavery has nothing to do with it.
Australia: I live in Australia what are you talking about?!
Black people are up to 4 times more likely to be accepted in American medical universities due to diversity quotas https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/med.png
Of course schools teach in the language of the country they are in do you expect them to teach in 5 different languages?!
It makes sense that the government doesn't want to encourage illegal immigration.
So facial recognition doesn't work on black people but ai facial recognition can discriminate against them?
Seriously it seems that your taking all this out of your imagination.
Over here we have schools which teach completely in Danish and hand out both German and Danish graduation papers, we have schools offering native-level classes in Frisian... Frisians don't really care about more they've always been bilingual. Even more so our Sinti, they don't want to see the language in schools at all but teach it inside the family, they've also always been bilingual. Frankly speaking we're doing more for our autochthone minorities language-wise than we do for ourselves, which would be protecting Low Saxon against the steady onslaught of Standard German.
But, no, we won't start teaching whatever Portuguese just because you arrived here recently and speak Portuguese. Best results are achieved when kids learn the majority language in kindergarten, on the playground, in school, while still speaking their parent's native language at home as that ensures that they're learning both languages properly. It's a matter of experience: Back in the 60s Turkish parents were told to speak German with their kids at home and the result was that the kids learned broken German and their Turkish sucks. That's not just a matter of not knowing those two languages properly as they never learned any languages properly there's measurable developmental delays.
Transposing that to America you should have plenty of schools teaching in native languages. Of course don't mandate everything being taught like that as that would segregate minorities, but things like maths in English and history in Lakota or whatever make perfect sense.
Circling back to black folks: It's high time AAVE is recognised as a proper variety of English. None of that "you're doing grammar wrong", or (in courts) "we'll pretend that you speak Standard English thus not provide a translator, then misunderstand you (tenses and aspects be hard) and lock you up based on that". If a decent number of your students speak AAVE natively it'd also be high time to teach its grammar on a native level, that can happen in ordinary English classes it's, after all, English.
Bias in data is always a problem. Take me: I have legs. I'm a man. Supposedly, when I buy trousers made for men they should fit me but all the data that clothing designers have seems to indicate all men are storks so I have to buy trousers for overweight people and then hem ass and waist. And I don't even fucking work out. Soap dispenser doesn't work for you because noone ever bothered to test it on black skin? Same shit just affecting a historically oppressed minority. Personally I wouldn't even call it an issue as it tends to get sorted out very quickly once the bias is spotted, unlike my issue which noone seems to care about because y'all are fucking storks.
As to the police thing: No it's really an issue in the US and it's not systemic racism it's plain racism. Policy makers know all too well that overpolicing breeds crime yet they do it and then say "we need to overpolice even more because black people do so much crime".
Americans already struggle to teach English to their people and you want to have them teach dying tongues?
Only 79% of Americans were literate in 2022 from 91% in the 60s
And yet black people only make up 7% of med school matriculants. Given that roughly 14% of the us population is black, this indicates a systemic issue preventing black people from achieving a level of educetion to even apply to med school.
Meanwhile, white people have entry rates as expected for their proportion of the general population, and asian applicants have entry rates twice what you would expect: 12% of the population is taking 22% of the seats.
These numbers are American, but thats also the country where "diversity quotas" are an issue. What we can see from the outcomes is that the opportunity is given out unequally from the very beginning, and thus even with an entrance process with a bias towards black people, the system as a whole is so biased against black people that half as many are able to participate
Whataboutism. Black people are poor exactly because they descend from slaves. When the slaves got freed, most of them were destined to poverty, and poverty is inherited under capitalism.
About all the aboriginals that went through genocide, both physically and culturally, for about 200 years?
Yes, monolingual countries are mostly a thing only in the western world. Most of the world is multilingual, and it has been for most of human history. And there's a big difference between having a lingua franca and being dominated by a colonial language.