this post was submitted on 29 Mar 2024
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[–] spujb@lemmy.cafe 120 points 9 months ago (4 children)

saw someone say maybe another trump win is good because it will mobilize the left a little more

threw up in my mouth a bit through the tears

[–] systemglitch@lemmy.world 55 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It's a round about way of saying they want a civil war.

[–] Jaderick@lemmy.world 29 points 9 months ago (7 children)

A lot of those types of leftists fantasize about a glorious revolution, but many revolutions have happened and no utopias exist so…

I think Contrapoints made the same argument in one of her videos.

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 18 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (35 children)

Agreed. I would add to that -- there's actually an incredibly instructive example to draw by looking at the non-violent-revolutionary movements that did achieve big social change in the past. The US labor movement in the late 1800s, Gandhi's independence movement, the US civil rights movement with its partial victory, things like that. There are a ton of examples of people who achieved big things to revise the systems that rule their daily lives, starting from a way less advantaged position than the left in the modern day US. It's not easy, no, but compared to an Indian person under the British Raj it's an absolute cakewalk.

Strangely enough, the people who are so incredibly upset with the broken system in the US as it pertains to this election (which, yeah, I get that), are somehow totally uninterested in looking at what actions big or small might produce positive change. They're solely focused on criticizing Biden and only Biden, or on saying that it's so broken that we might as well let Trump come to power because what's the difference.

It's like "The plane is having engine trouble and I don't know if we're going to make it. I'm real scared and upset about the situation we're in. I know! Let's shoot the pilot in the head."

[–] Twinklebreeze@lemmy.world 26 points 9 months ago (3 children)

Wasn't the us labor movement violent? I seem to remember something about troops firing on striking miners.

[–] Jaderick@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago

Mine owners utilized violence and essentially wage slavery to keep miners from unionizing and asking for more fair working conditions. Pinkertons got their reputation as being violent corporate mercenaries in this period, and they continue to be. The violence caused miners to fight back, and when they did the US army got involved usually in the interest of the mine owners. The lead up to the Battle of Blair Mountain is one of the best examples of this and maybe the most impactful.

[–] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

It was nonviolent, until bosses/police starting shooting miners and their families, at which point it developed into a small-scale civil war. So yes, I shouldn't have simply said blanket non violent I guess... I was just trying to draw a distinction between "let's fight for justice for ourselves" versus "let's storm the capital and do away with the leaders" as two roads (with the first being more effective, and the second often leading to catastrophe instead of the progress that was hoped for.)

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[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

They would engage in retaliatory violence but the first shot was never fired by the labor organizers

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Well said.

I believe a fraction of them are actual authoritarian sympathizers, and are just hoping "their brand" will align with a future hypothetical autocrat.

They don't want actual justice, they just want to reroll the dice and hopefully come out on top.

To the other fraction, I think those folks are exactly the folks who completed those movements you mentioned. They worked hard to push the existing system towards their goal, often starting from a very weak position.

That pushing largely isn't done, and it is less glamorous and obvious compared to flipping the table, killing the current leaders (and a bunch of other demonized but innocent groups oopsie daisy) and trying again. That's how you get a Khmer rouge and then a pol pot.

We need another MLK and his contemporaries.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 5 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I agree, we really need some leftists who have the backbone of MLK.

Now let me say a word for those of you who are on strike. You’ve been out now for a number of days. But don’t despair. Nothing worthwhile is gained without sacrifice. The thing for you to do is stay together. Say to everybody in this community that you’re going to stick it out to the end until every demand is met. And that you’re going to say, “We ain’t going to let nobody turn us around.” Let it be known everywhere that along with wages and all of the other securities that you are struggling for, you’re also struggling for the right to organize and be recognized…

We can all get more together than we can apart. This is the way to gain power. Power is the ability to achieve purpose. Power is the ability to effect change. We need power…

Now the other thing is that nothing is gained without pressure. Don’t let anybody tell you to go back on your job and paternalistically say, now, “You’re my man, and I’m going to do the right thing for you if you’ll just come back on the job.” Don’t go back on the job until the demands are met. Never forget that freedom is not something that must be demanded by the oppressor. It is something that must be demanded by the oppressed. Freedom is not some lavish dish that the power structure and the white forces imparted with making positions will voluntarily hand down on a silver platter while the Negro merely furnishes the appetite.

If we are going to get equality, if we are going to get adequate wages, we are going to have to struggle for it. Now, you know what, you may have to escalate the struggle a bit. If they keep refusing, and they will not recognize the union, and will not decree further check-off for the collection of dues, I’m telling you what you ought to do, and you’re together here enough to do it. In a few days you ought to get together and just have a general work stoppage in the city of Memphis.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 5 points 9 months ago (46 children)

Now that shit will fire you up. Good stuff.

Notice he was very forceful and determined, but never said stupid stuff like "hurr let's get the guillotine!"

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[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 12 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Lol this is what gets me about the "get the guillotine" folks.

They think they'll be the youth on the propaganda poster, waving the flag over the rubble of a conquered city, as if that's realistic, or that it wouldn't come with massive loss of life (not just in the capital class), lawlessness, and a huge power vacuum that will obviously be filled by an authoritarian (and likely a bigoted fascist).

[–] Inconcinnity@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago (1 children)

People only seem to know the "guillotining the aristocracy" part, not the "reign of terror" part.

[–] Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social 4 points 9 months ago

Or the bit about setting up systems of mutual aid so that our comrades arent killed by the dogs. Theyre here to cry against voting. Not to actually bring about a revolution and especially not keep each other alive in the event of one.

[–] BrokenGlepnir@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I've seen some people on lemmy when I first started lurking, try to claim that some of the most dystopian nations are really close to utopia and are actually trying really hard guys. I think many of them were those types of leftists.

[–] Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social 3 points 9 months ago

Just get a load of the accounts that keep replying to the comments i leave. Theyre not good faith actors. Theyre paid trolls or bots. And theyve flooded this thread. This post was at 440 upvotes with 240 comments some hrs ago and as of now sits at 489 and 360 comments. That should hopefully strike one as unusual. Im willing to bet that in that time this thread was upvoted significantly more than 50 times. American leftists are being targeted to ensure we dont turn out in november.

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[–] Wrench@lemmy.world 20 points 9 months ago (1 children)

All those armchair warriors that have a couple guns and say they're ready for the revolution, but aren't even participating in any activism besides edgelording on forums.

Sure you are, champ. Sure you are. Why don't you instacart yourself some hot pockets and a gallon of ice cream.

[–] abbotsbury@lemmy.world 11 points 9 months ago (2 children)

If you aren't part of at least three mutual aid groups providing mesh support in your tri-county area, I don't wanna hear a goddamn thing about the revolution from you.

[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago (1 children)

This comment reads like sarcasm, but unironically yeah. If you aren't politically active already, you're not going to suddenly gain the will to overthrow the government when Trump wins again.

[–] abbotsbury@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

For sure. If you want to break the chains of international capitalism, you better have a tested plan to replace those logistics networks for necessities.

[–] bobburger@fedia.io 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I hope this doesn't come across as insincere, but why is the tri-county part relevant? Is it just a convenient geographic grouping? Is it a metaphor?

[–] abbotsbury@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

Metaphor. I mean you should not only be supporting your own community, but involved in inter-community aid and organization if you are truly advocating for a revolution.

[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 46 points 9 months ago (1 children)
[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago (4 children)

It blows my mind that we're still discussing this after the German left took this approach with Hitler.

There is no "after fascists". Fascists are the enemy that we unite against. Hitler wouldn't have come into power if the leftists and moderates cooperated and had a healthy relationship. Even if some factions of the left/moderates want to play off fascists for power, there's still plenty of people in the relevant group who dislike the fascists. Unite with them to take down the fascists and elements of their party who empower them.

We'll get nowhere if we assume the entire group of leftists/moderates are fascist supporters. We need to ally.

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[–] Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social 28 points 9 months ago (7 children)

The trolls ive spoken to here are afraid of leftist solidarity. They claim they want change, but whine and cry the second you call for all roads for change to be taken. Mutual aid, direct action, and voting are praxis. We will have an impossible time trying to get any of those first 2 done under dumbass.

As someone on the far end of the left spectrum, any and all leftward movement must be embraced at all opportunities. How am i to convince anyone to work together with me, if I shit on their methods? All must be embraced. Some will be more effective, some less, but thats how we make connections.

Its about time this country learned what solidarity is.

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago (7 children)

Very well spoken. Even if the progress is minor, it's helping some people, and that's important. Obamacare was not the ultimate, perfect healthcare fix, but it did give a whole lot of people affordable healthcare where they didn't previously. It was a cause worth supporting for that reason. And as someone who had to rely on it for a time, I greatly appreciate it.

If we've made someone's life better or easier, we've succeeded. That to me is practical leftism. We help as many as we can as much as we can. Since we aren't in unilateral power, that means we have to compromise. And working with colleagues will be more successful than being combative. The lone socialist in the Virginia House was able to get a lot done that way.

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