No Stupid Questions

friendly reminder that these people vote

So. the firmament is a thing.

Mostly these days, it's considered to be allegory, as apposed to firm fact. but people- typically Young Earth Creationist types- will insist the english-translated bible is the absolute word of god meant to be taken absolutely literally. (and will reject things like aging and dino bones because it was made to look that way. for some reason.)

there are some middle-ground type people who espoused a belief that there was a solid shell of ice- the firmament- and that it melted to create the cataclysm written of Noah's flood to explain why it wasn't there, but was there before.

They, uh, also tend to go in for a flat earth.

This was roughly the early cosmology of Judaism, but even by Jesus's time was being abandoned. For example, the Greeks and Romans were familiar enough with both lunar eclipses and the Earth being round that the generally accepted explanation for lunar eclipses was that the Earth was eclipsing the sun and casting a shadow on the moon, which we know was popular because in De Rerum Natura Lucretius appeals to keep more of an open mind as that might not be the only explanation (meaning it was commonly enough endorsed that it was nearly considered the sole explanation in Lucretius's circles).

This may even connect to the description of the three hour "crucifixion darkness" in the earliest copies of Luke where it is explained as being caused by the sun being eclipsed. That language is changed in later versions, and the language of 'eclipse' was criticized by early church commentators given that solar eclipses were known to be impossible on a full moon (such as Passover) and only last around 8 minutes.

But what's often overlooked was that being written after 50 CE, visible nighttime lunar eclipses whose previous Saros cycle eclipses were during the daytime (and not visible) in the 30s CE would have allowed the latter to be trivially calculated by astronomers of the time.

Lunar eclipses take 3 hours, and have a 1 in 6 chance of occurring on Passover. We even know there was a daytime lunar eclipse on Passover of 33 CE, whose subsequent Saros cycle eclipse was visible in both Judea and Greece before any of the Synoptic gospels were written.

So not only was some of the anti-firmament cosmology known by the era of the New Testament, it's quite possible that there was even originally text reflecting both knowledge the earth was round and that lunar eclipses are caused by the earth eclipsing the sun in the New Testament, but it may have been subsequently removed because later editors failed to realize the event was not an eyewitness testimony but a calculated celestial event and thus dismissed it as erroneously describing an impossible solar eclipse.

TL;DR: Your family member is nearly going pre-NT with the commitment to that cosmology there.

What wasn’t reasoned into her head, can’t be reasoned out.

Sounds like there’s a good chance that you may need to apply a method I use when dealing people who believe in conspiracy theories. It’s largely a psychological thing, and it has very little to do with proof, evidence, logic, reasoning and science. No amount of evidence is ever going to solve a problem that is psychological in nature. Religious cults and conspiracy groups share some characteristics, so maybe this is applicable in her case too.

The idea is that people believe in crazy BS because that makes them a member of a group. That gives them an identity and makes them feel like they’re a privileged group for knowing some “hidden truth” about something. It also produces an “us against them” dynamic between the in-group and the out-group. Many individuals in these groups also have sub-clinical psychosis, narcissism or paranoia accompanied by anxiety and loneliness. This setup means that they find these BS nonsense groups appealing, and that the misguided beliefs become essentially bullet proof. Fighting against these beliefs will only make them stronger.

These people need therapy more than evidence.

Like others have said, this is flat earther stuff. A lot of Christian evangelical types question things like the Big Bang and how old the universe/Earth really are, but afaik there isn’t an entire religion with this as a belief.

I used to work at a space museum and we would get Christian folks who would sometimes argue with us over the number that was on the sign telling them the age of our Moon rock, but never that the earth was flat. If that is a thing, it must be new.

This is dipshit flatearther stuff. Ask them about the ice wall around the disc of the earth next time you see them.

The idea of a firmament is definitely a thing and has been for thousands of years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament

I’ve heard about it all my life from mainstream Christian churches too. Though it’s more of a metaphorical thing than physical. Like it’s a supernatural reason why we can never get to Mars rather than being a glass dome.

You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. She believes this because it's a follow-up on the "the bible is literally true" position she has taken as an apparently core part of her personality.

Unless you're looking for a fight, consider just ignoring this person. Otherwise, call her out and make her call you a liar in front a crowd.

Let it go, friend. Don't let a moron get you riled up. If it helps, just take comfort in the fact that the majority of the problems in this person's life will be self-created, but they will be too goddamn stupid to realize it or take the actions in their power to correct them.

I’m curious if anyone else is able to provide an example here. Personally, I grew up in an extremely right-wing, very isolated, very culty version of the southern baptist church. I was around young-earthers, anti-vaxxers, anti-evolution folks, dinosaur/man co-existence, believing black people are black because they’re cursed—all sorts of crazy whackadoodle shit. I never once met someone who didn’t believe in space. I think you’re right that this was a YouTube Fact™ that she picked up somewhere.

I can't find anything about this dome in a google search

I gotta question your methodology here a bit, because just googling "firmament" will get you quite a lot of results and you don't have to read very far into the actual Bible to come across the term (depending on the version of the Bible you read, different translations use different terms, sometimes I've seen "vault" used instead) its probably going to be right there on the first page of Genesis.

Now the Bible doesn't exactly do a great job of describing the firmament. Coming up with an actual model for for the heavens and the earth kind of fell to various scholars over the years trying to make sense of it.

In general, if you take it literally, the firmament is normally interpreted as a sort of solid structure somewhere up above the sky that separates heaven and a whole bunch of water from the rest of creation and probably more or less resembles a dome above a flat earth. The exact structure of all of that will vary quite a bit depending on which denomination and scholars you listen to.

Even the word firmament should kind of clue you in that it's supposed to be kind of solid, you can really go down a linguistic rabbit hole through all manner of English, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, etc. words with this but for the most part you'll get the impression that you're supposed to believe there is some sort of physical barrier there

Most of the mainstream sects have adopted somewhat less-literal interpretations over the years because obviously the science doesn't support that interpretation at all.

But of course there are a whole lot of absolutely wacky Christian denominations (all of them are at least a bit wacky, but some really go the extra mile into the heart of crazytown) and even in the less-insane denominations some individuals pick and choose and come up with their own batshit interpretations of things.

Off the top of my head, I don't know which sects stick to a literal interpretation of it being a solid dome, but I'm absolutely sure they're out there, but most of them are probably not very mainstream, most of them are probably independent churches not affiliated or only loosely affiliated with any larger organization. And a lot of people who believe it are probably picking it up outside of any organized church and either coming up with their own interpretations or getting it from some wackadoo on the internet.

Trying to talk sense into her is probably an exercise in futility and I would not have even the faintest idea of how to go about doing that. If you do want to learn more about her specific beliefs though, a good place to start is probably going right to the source and figuring out which church she goes to and where she's getting her info- what websites, books, YouTube channels, etc. and the best way to do that is probably just to ask her. Don't try to argue with her and convince her she's wrong, you're not going to get anywhere, just get some links and recommendations, she's probably going to view it as a chance to convert you and born again types are all about that, she'll probably dump a whole bunch on you.

You're going to have to accept that she is stupid and insane. Don't take it personally when the mentally ill person denies that your profession exists. She is delusional, and we must be patient with the crazies.

Look up biblical cosmology on Wikipedia.

Space between church and state?

Yes flat earthers.

I agree with others, this seems like a flat-earther belief that has gotten mixed with Christianity's creation story.

I've heard of it before while browsing the internet, but not from any Christians I personally know. All the Christians I interact with (myself included) believe in a literal interpretation of the creation but nobe of us believe in a physical firmament. I will note that a single man I know denies the moon landing (for reasons I haven't bothered to ask) but even he still believes in a spherical earth and heliocentric orbit.

My understanding of Genesis 1:6-8 is that the firmament mentioned is the earth's sky or atmosphere itself, and not a physical barrier at the edge of the atmosphere. The easiest way to show this would be Genesis 1:20 where birds are described as "flying in the firmament of heaven". If the firmament was a solid object, birds could not fly in it.

Even by fundamentalist/Young Earth types, it's considered pretty extreme, but yes, literal belief in the firmament is a thing.

She believes space doesn't exist and rockets just blow up because the bible said so.

Ask her to show you where in the bible it says that rockets blow up. Or really where any of these things are in the bible.

I grew up in a super religious family and went to a Christian school for my whole childhood. Most people who claim to be religious don't even read the Bible, and as soon as you ask them to point out where in the bible it says the things they are claiming it says, their argument falls apart. On the off chance they are able to point to a passage where it says it, 9 times out of 10, theor interpretation is the most idiotic way you could interpret it.

People like her keeps religions alive. Please ask her not to procreate.

"Creationism" has some weird ideas about what space is. Though I will admit, some of those ideas would be pretty cool for a fantasy/scifi.

Does she have a priest /pastor? Maybe have a sit down with that person without your family member present and see what their thoughts are. If that priest /pastor understands that yes space exists have them talk to your relative.

In 6,000 year creationism, some sects believe there was a physical firmament (basically a shell of ice around the earth), but that it fell during Noah's flood.

Oof. Even when I was a devout Christian I understood that space was a thing. Like ffs there's even a video sermon of a pastor showing a picture of a stars forming a cross I saw making the rounds a decade ago. Most religious people would find that belief nutty lol