Valve stand alone headset coming π
Steam Deck
A place to discuss and support all things Steam Deck.
Replacement for r/steamdeck_linux.
As Lemmy doesn't have flairs yet, you can use these prefixes to indicate what type of post you have made, eg:
[Flair] My post title
The following is a list of suggested flairs:
[Discussion] - General discussion.
[Help] - A request for help or support.
[News] - News about the deck.
[PSA] - Sharing important information.
[Game] - News / info about a game on the deck.
[Update] - An update to a previous post.
[Meta] - Discussion about this community.
Some more Steam Deck specific flairs:
[Boot Screen] - Custom boot screens/videos.
[Selling] - If you are selling your deck.
These are not enforced, but they are encouraged.
Rules:
- Follow the rules of Sopuli
- Posts must be related to the Steam Deck in an obvious way.
- No piracy, there are other communities for that.
- Discussion of emulators are allowed, but no discussion on how to illegally acquire ROMs.
- This is a place of civil discussion, no trolling.
- Have fun.
I know you're referring to a VR headset but my mind immediately started imagining standalone over-ear headphones that can play all PC games through a purely audio interface. Imagine the accessibility possibilities lol
I don't know why your mind even went there but I love it. Didn't even think of that lol
ARM based Deck would be a huge improvement to battery life. Don't get your hopes up too high. You will need an emulation layer like FEX of Box64, and unlike WINE those do have quite a substantial overhead.
It is impressive how far those emulators have come, especially since they got the option to use native libraries instead of emulated ones, but the game logic itself will always need emulation...
This doesn't mean it can't be done, it just means that the ARM CPU needs to be pretty fast to counter the emulation overhead, and that's why I have my doubts about the energy efficiency...
(Btw: I have tried running several AMD64 games on my A311D powered MNT Reform laptop with Box64. It's impressive how well the emulation runs, and how many games are actually playable already. However, I also encountered a lot of games that don't reach enjoyable FPS on that hardware. With a faster ARM chip though....)
With a big dev like valve backing it they could probably implement a pretty impressive JIT/cacheing scheme - of course nothing beats native but this gap will close over time
Yep. The big question is if the gap will close enough that ARM chips indeed end up delivering better power efficiency with emulation than an AMD64 chip that delivers the same performance without emulation.
My bets would be on the native AMD64 chip ending up more power efficient. To be honest, I would not bet too much money though.
This would presumably let x86 windows games run on ARM hardware.
Doesn't that require something quite different?
Proton is improved (matured?) WINE, right? And Wine Is Not an Emulator - the point being it doesn't emulate hardware, it translates instruction sets. From for-Windows x86 to Linux x86. Can you do that cross cpu architecture?
Well, not exactly... WINE is a compatibility layer for syscalls between the x86 Windows API and (among others) the x86 Linux API, quite similar to how DXVK translates from DirectX to Vulkan.
What proton does is combine utilities like Wine and DXVK into a user friendly bundle, along with contributing substantially to the projects it bundles to make them interoperate well.
This looks to me like they want to bundle another utility, which does fast emulation of x86 user code on an ARM Linux system. Another commentator mentioned they are using FEX for this, which looks to me to do the same core task as qemu-user, but more focused on x86 to ARM and generally user-friendlier. That emulator could then be used to run x86 Wine on ARM.
The way qemu-user and FEX emulate one ISA on another is actually very cool btw. They realise massive speed gains by intercepting syscalls and executing them directly, instead of emulating a whole x86 Linux system.
by intercepting syscalls and executing them directly
Not only syscalls. FEX and Box64 also allow using native libraries instead of emulating them. That leaves basically only the game logic to be emulated.
I didn't know that, thanks! That's actually very impressive, and given how efficient qemu-style emulators are, I wouldn't be surprised to see near-native performance despite a little bit of overhead from emulating game logic.
Since Microsoft also wants x86 apps to work on their Qualcomm powered Windows laptops, can this project help Microsoft in some way?
No, not that much. The emulation of the syscalls are specific to Linux, so none of that is usable on Windows. They could reuse the emulator, but it seems likely they would write their own from scratch so they can keep everything closed source. Obligatory: fuck Microsoft.
They will likely write their own emulator, but don't forget about WSL. You can already run WINE on Windows, I wouldn't be surprised if you could also run FEX+WINE on Windows for ARM.
I'm not that familiar with WSL, can it interface with libraries like DirectX or Vulkan?
A happy fuck Microsoft to you as well π©
Hey, can I join in!
Fuck you Microsoft
Thanks for the explanation!
Exciting! I remember commenting about the next Steam Deck being ARM a couple months ago and a few people replied that it was unlikely haha
Hope this can work in Asahi Linux at some point too π
I could see a budget Deck with an ARM processor, but I still doubt the flagship model wouldnβt be x86-64
I don't think a budget deck is likely tbh. The non oled deck already goes for 250 on sales. To make a clear distinction the budget one would need to be <150. And I don't think that's feasible with all the other hardware necessary alone. Except making it a lot smaller which I don't think is a good approach.
Well you may be right and Valve may only be aiming to support some of the already-existing handhelds out there that are ARM based.
Valve does know how to play the long game on support, so time will tell.
A part of me does hope that they'll hold off and release riscv products instead (headset and deck). I know box64 can already translate to riscv and I remember reading that FEX was working on it (android is also getting riscv support so waydroid should too?). Given their focus on linux it has to be on their radar
In the shorter-term the issue is the lack of sufficiently powerful commercially-available RISC-V hardware for the level of gaming people expect out of a Steam Deck or VR headset, which ARM already has a number of SOCs capable of.
I don't doubt that the work will continue but Valve isn't likely to pour time or money into it until they think the hardware is there.
This is almost certainly meant for the next Valve VR headset
Based on what? Looks more likely to be Android to me. Or it could be an ARM Steam Deck.
ARM has so much better power efficiency than x86
x86 has pretty much caught up already if you look at the latest mobile chips from AMD and Intel.
Steam for Android ready to play my PC games from my phone sounds awesome, not gonna lie.
Largest addressable market for Proton on ARM is Apple M-series devices.
Intel claims to have caught up with the upcoming Lunar Lake series but still to be seen.
That may be too late for whatever new device Valve is working on as given the lead time for such devices they may already have committed to an architecture for devices next year.
Also running X86 games on Arm devices is not likely to be efficient. I doubt the energy efficiency of Arm chips would outweigh the overhead of X86 to Arm translation?
But it's all speculation - even without hardware, getting Proton to work with Arm is good for steam regardless of any specific devices. For example it would allow steam to push the compatability tools onto Mac devices and even potentially mobile devices. Makes sense for Valve to do this without it meaning anything more that it being a god idea in itself.
Part of how they're identifying that proton arm and steam Waydroid exists is that the tools are being used to test VR games uploaded to steam, or were uploaded in a batch of other VR assets.
I fully hope to see this apply to Steam Deck/Chromebooks/Android/etc, but right now any hints of these have been VR specific. We haven't seen the Proton ARM before, but previous leaks about Waydroid have also all been VR related.
Well, Steam and Proton both already run on top of FEX or Box64 on ARM Linux, but it's nice to see an official effort from Valve.
Also, does ARM still have better battery life when all of the machine code has to be translated from x86? That adds a not insubstantial amount of CPU overhead, which does hurt battery life.
And perhaps most importantly, is there any ARM chipset out there that can deliver performance on par with the Steam Deck's CPU (even after factoring in the overhead of the x86 JIT) at a viable price for a Steam Deck successor?
is there any ARM chipset out there that can deliver performance on par with the Steam Deckβs CPU
Yes, but they're made by Apple.
Amazing! I hope I can buy a Linux on ARM Steam Deck someday. It should be more efficient, lighter, and smaller.
Imagine someone can game on their Mac using ashi linux or heck even your phone
Winlator already does this on Android, for what it's worth. Oblivion plays fine on my phone although touch input sucks.
As for games on Asahi, there's box64/box86 to accelerate games (redirecting graphics APIs and such to native code).
You can already run apps made for foreign architectures by simply installing the right qemu package (not the virtual machine, the binary translator) and running the software using standard Wine. Conversely, you can also run Raspberry Pi software this way on normal PCs, which has proven very useful to me for cross compilation scenarios.
I assume Valve will take all of this tech and optimise it a bit more. If you're on a MacBook, your biggest challenge will probably be driver support, which is advancing at a rapid pace, but I'm not sure if you can get maximum performance out of it yet.