this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 238 points 6 months ago (11 children)

They don't understand that Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden, if not even more so considering he moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem.

[–] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 89 points 6 months ago (37 children)

That's the great part about our democracy: You don't get to vote for someone who isn't pro-Israel. Because freedom.

[–] Fedizen@lemmy.world 47 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (6 children)

*electoral system

Because of FPTP and the Winner Take All Electoral College, there is a lot of political pressure to only have 2 parties. In a better system (proportional, ranked choice, etc) it wouldn't break with more than two parties. In fact just reforming the electoral college to be proportional would likely allow 3 parties to exist.

If you look at history the last time there was a viable 3rd party it possibly initiated the civil war by allowing an anti slavery viewpoint to exist (which is good, but if we'd had a better voting system it would have happened earlier and reduced a lot of suffering)

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 65 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Congress is bipartisan pro-Israel. This isn't even a presidential issue.

Biden just happens to be the guy doing the pro-Israel stuff at the moment, so he's eating the lions share of the public ire.

"You have to support the Pro-Israel guy because the other guy is pro-Israel and both party leaders are pro-Israel and the cops are trained by Israelis and Israeli businesses have strong ties with the MIC and Big Finance needs Israel to control trade through the Suez and you're outnumbered and outgunned so quit fighting, just vote for Joe Biden" just isn't a winning message among progressive voters this year.

Maybe try it again in 2026.

[–] gears@sh.itjust.works 15 points 6 months ago (2 children)

My company buys a specific board from an Israeli company.

We have been working on an in house alternative for a few years now. Now we're scared to actually perform the switch because of the anti-boycott laws

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[–] firadin@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (5 children)

The thing is: Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians. He's providing aid to Gazans and pressuring Israel to minimize civilian casualties. It's not great, or even good, I agree - but it's a whole lot better than Trump who would be pro-Israel and anti-Palestinians. You'd see humanitarian aid end and the US support total war instead of the (slightly) restrained version we're seeing now.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians.

Biden’s Increasingly Contradictory Israel Policy: A former State Department official explains the Administration’s sharpening public critique of Israel’s war and simultaneous refusal to “impose a single cost or consequence.”

Right now it seems like the Biden Administration is trying to pressure Israel not to launch a military assault on Rafah and to allow in more humanitarian aid. At the same time, it has shown an unwillingness to take strong steps to punish Israel or to restrict the flow of aid or weapons to Israel if the Israelis disregard that pressure. How do you understand the strategy now?

I’d call the Biden Administration’s approach “passive-aggressive.” They are angry at Netanyahu, and were even before this. He’s presiding over the most extreme government in the history of the state of Israel. That government and the preceding dozen years of Netanyahu’s tenure are undermining the two fundamental drivers of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, which are shared values and common interests. So, it’s passive-aggressive in the sense that, six months into the war, the Administration has still been unwilling—unable—to impose a single cost or consequence that you and I, as normal human beings, would describe as real pressure.

Unable or unwilling?

Both, but I’ll get to that in a second. There were three levers the Administration could’ve pulled. They’re still available. No. 1 is to end U.S. military assistance. There’s no indication the Administration’s anywhere close to that. It just approved a shipment of two-thousand-pound bombs, and twenty F-35s. No. 2, change the U.S. voting posture at the U.N., either by introducing its own Security Council resolution, or by voting for someone else’s, that is very critical of Israel. It has not done that. No. 3, abandon the whole notion of negotiating the hostage release and simply join the chorus of those in the international community who basically say, “You need to pressure Israel to cease this military campaign.”

And I think it has not done these things

Biden is pro-Getting Relected. And he recognizes that his party is increasingly pro-Palestinian. However, his current policy appears to be a CYA strategy, intended to create the illusion of neutrality while negotiating a path that allows Israel to continue its extermination of Arab people across the region.

As this exterminationist Israeli agenda becomes more undeniable, the job of appearing neutral grows more difficult. And Biden's decision to (tacitly) back Israel at all costs means risking friendly relations with Turkyie, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. However, he's staying the course, precisely because he's banking on a mass expulsion and genocide of Palestinians today will strengthen Israel's regional position in the future.

[–] go_go_gadget@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

It's especially telling that one of Biden's justification's for his support of Israel is a promise to his dying father.

Is that how politicians in a Democracy are supposed to make decisions?

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 8 points 6 months ago

If someone gives a sandwich to me and a gun to a person actively trying to murder me, they are not "pro-me"

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[–] makyo@lemmy.world 63 points 6 months ago (6 children)

Yeah even to expand on that - they don't understand that everything they don't like about Biden, they'll like about Trump less. I mean I have real serious gripes about Biden but it is insultingly stupid to pretend that Trump would be any kind of a solution to those problems.

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 49 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (41 children)

It seems that many of them know that Trump is worse, but think that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action. Republicans count on people like that to win. Fascists don't give a fuck how they get into power, as long as they do.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 28 points 6 months ago (3 children)

They don't just count on it. They actively invade spaces and spread that idea. I'm almost certain the first people saying that about Biden/Israel were right wing trolls, and people on the left actually took the bait and started spreading it themselves.

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I get the sentiment, because I hate our two choices, too, but until first past the post system is changed, the lesser of two evils will always be the most practical choice.

[–] Wrench@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago (4 children)

They also seem to fervently believe:

  1. Stop participating in 2 party system
  2. ???
  3. Get ranked choice system

Any time you ask for details on step 2, you get an unhinged rant with zero plausibility.

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)

My best guess, if they actually believe there's a path to a ranked choice system and aren't just being doomers, is that they think a bloody rebellion will do the trick.

[–] Wrench@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

Yeah, there's a lot of tankies that pretend they are progressives so they don't get laughed at outright. They'll take their masks off 10-20 comments down the thread where few people actually see.

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[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 11 points 6 months ago (7 children)

What exactly is your plan for changing first past the post?

You could make the case that if the democrats actually supported that, it's worth holding your nose and voting for them in order to open up other options in the future. But they don't support it, because they benefit from it. So basically you're asking the left to keep voting for the democrats unconditionally forever while they don't address any of our concerns and refuse to make any sort of reforms that might allow us to have a voice in the future. How is that a viable path to accomplishing anything?

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[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 42 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

The GOP openly courts antisemites while also supporting Israel. They make sure to have all the awful bases covered.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 29 points 6 months ago (1 children)

They need all the Jews to return to Israel and the temple to be rebuilt so Jesus can come back. Of course, that does mean expelling all Jews from every other country Jews are in, but they leave that part out.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 23 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Zionism fits neatly into the view that every country should be ethically homogenous.

[–] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago (4 children)
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[–] Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social 39 points 6 months ago (4 children)

And once again, as the foreign trolls that are busy courting our youth want, not one comment in this entire thread mentions that Europe is on the brink of open modernized war should Ukraine fall to vlad "Ukraine is just a stepping stone" putin.

Gaza is a genocide, but that is not the critical geopolitical stage to be paying the most attention to. Once again it is completely ignored that the heads of hamas who attacked israel on oct 7 knowing exactly what they were about to cause are friends of putin.

The Gaza genocide was provoked precisely to pull western eyes from the Ukrainian front where russia was more than underperforming to ensure their victory in a sustained war of attrition.

You want to avoid a world war? You vote for biden whether u do it proudly or do it holding ur nose the way most of the sane will.

[–] r_se_random@sh.itjust.works 27 points 6 months ago (8 children)

The Gaza genocide did not start on Oct 7, much like the Russian incursion on Unkraine did not start in Jan 2022. Both of those are tremendous blights on human rights and should be equally condemned.

Of course, voting for Biden is the only stable option as much as one may lament that it shouldn't be.

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[–] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 10 points 6 months ago (3 children)

If what you say is correct, then it would seem that the onus is on Israel to stop the genocide in order to save its European benefactors.

[–] Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social 9 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The onus to sane action is on everyone. Israel is in the wrong no matter which way u cut the pie. It does not mean that ignoring whats happening north of israel is validated bc the apartheid state is acting the way it always has.

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[–] DAMunzy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Yeah, October 7th had nothing to do with the war that Israel was performing on Gaza before that. It wasn't all about Ukraine.

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[–] LibertyLizard 37 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (7 children)

He absolutely is more so. Also, young people have more power to influence Biden because they are part of his coalition. Of course, using this power is tricky because you need to pressure and criticize Biden without actually making him lose. So far I support the pressure campaign but I hope as the election gets closer people will start to realize what an epic disaster Trump term two would be.

[–] foggy@lemmy.world 36 points 6 months ago (3 children)

He said he would level Palestine.

Not sure what these youngins are reading but he isn't coy about it.

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[–] Krono@lemmy.today 17 points 6 months ago (26 children)

Are young people really a part of Bidens coalition? Bidens policies and rhetoric have consistantly pushed young people away. The ridiculous speech he gave just a few minutes ago maligning student protestors is emblematic of this.

And it seems like young people have got the message. The last poll I saw had 18-24yr olds voting for Trump at +8%

[–] LibertyLizard 7 points 6 months ago

Historically they have been. I think Biden seems out of touch but I’m not sure I agree with this sentiment overall. That poll sounds dubious but I mean coalitions can change certainly. Trump seems even further from the views I see most young people espousing so I’m not sure why they would move to him but maybe it’s protest vote kind of situation.

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