People have been coming up with theories about this forever, from perspectives and time periods as diverse as Aristotle, St. Augustine, Gandhi, and Trotsky. You put a lot of very difficult questions in your post, but you didn't put forth a criteria for what "justified" means to you. I think you're going to need to interrogate that before being able to even think about any of these questions. For example, is violence justified by better outcomes, or by some absolute individual right to fight your oppressor? Is justification a question of morality, legality, tactical value, or something entirely different?
this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2023
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I know this lies at the core of the question, simply because “justification” is such a complex concept on its own. I asked the question because I can’t for the life of me get even remotely close to an answer because the different theories of morality and justice all are founded in sound logic, even though they contradict one another.
I want to hear what other people think, if they’ve made up their mind, and why they think what they think.
At the end of the day, you will still have to answer the root question(s) for yourself to yourself in order to resolve it for you. I admire your open-mindedness, but I worry that the post here is your way to avoid answering the deeper questions.
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Word. Personally, I really like St. Augustine's writings, which is a weird thing for an atheist and socialist living 1600 years later to say. I got really into his stuff during the pandemic for some reason. I also recommend some of Trotsky's writing about war, especially in the run-up to WW1 while they were trying to hold the second international together. Lots of really wonderful stuff about international solidarity, and the role of socialists in a time of capitalist war, that I think would do people good to read today, 100 years later. He also wrote some stuff once he was in power after WW1 that I personally found less cool, but interesting in a "no one can reign innocently" way.
I'm of the mind that violence towards innocent civilians is never justified. Violence towards an oppressive authority can be, depends on the situation. Also, as a side note, it's impossible to commit violence towards property/inanimate objects. Violence, in my opinion, is an act that specifically harms a person. So burning a house down, even if the owner is not in it, is still violence towards a person.
what if those civilians are condoning/supporting what the oppressive authority is doing?
If they're not active combatants they're not a target. How can you tell the difference between someone who is condoning/supporting vs someone who is just trying to survive? You can't so if they're not actively a threat they're not a target either.
Who is a civilian? Does a guy with a shotgun who doesn't like you in his backyard count as a civilian? Etc. It's hard to nail down.
That's true, I would argue that is someone is threatening you then you can obviously respond with violence. This is an issue that has been going on in Israel. Civilians were given weapons and backed by the military to settle. This definitely blurs the line and helps to illustrate the complexity of the problem. In the case of Israel, the current situation is absolutely the result of its governments policies over the past several decades. This does not excuse wanton violence targeting civilians directly though. That's not even to mention the attacks and absolute war crimes happening to Palestinians right now and in the past.
It is a complicated question with not a single clear answer for every situation.
Violence against aggressors can be justified if you're not escalating something to new levels, but violence against random people is never justified.
This is the correct answer.
Exactly. The numerous rapes and kidnappings are absolutely not called for, nor justified, ever. These are innocent civilians being pulled into a larger conflict. That is the worst part of war - even innocent people suffer, instead of it being a private conflict between whatever groups.
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History is written by the winners so whatever you do make it effective. You kill a bunch of people and lose you will be vilified.
My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).
Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
Not detached. No rights have ever been won under capitalism through a peace movement alone.
No, not the US Civil Rights Movement.
No, not the fall off apartheid in S.A.
No, not even the independence movement in India.
All has peace movements. All also had organizations that engaged in actions of violence against their oppressors. To ignore that is ahistorical.
one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.
Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn't include mass casualties, it's just humans are too fucking shit to try.
It's never justified, but it also feels gross to join this chorus of condemnation against Hamas, when it's so much louder and widespread than any condemnation of official Israeli policies which have had the same or worse material effect for decades.
I wanna see you try dialoguing with Putin. Do you think everyone is shy and nobody ever tried??
It's not ever justified.
Which is kind of the point. If it's a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.
It's not noble or good. It's never justified.
Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.
But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.
And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.
So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.
And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
You seem to think necessary !-> justified.
However, if something is necessary, it is justified.
While you may quibble, "it's necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn't justified", this part "it's necessary to defend myself in life or death situations" IS the justification of the action. It's justified definitionally.
As such, your argument crumbles.
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Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about.
There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.
The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren't necessary.
The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they're functionally synonymous.
Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.
Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.
Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it's being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.
Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.
Peace isn't an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.
So now we've got:
Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.
This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that's okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.
We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don't look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we'd look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we'd be hypocrites.
You're close to the crux of the issue.
The real issue at hand is whether or not we're talking about moral relativism or absolutism.
If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob's killing Jane).
My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.
I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.
I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.
I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?
I find it hard to consider that as part of the liberation since it happened after independence. Looks more like state violence aimed at a minority to me.
Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.
But the target of the violence matters a lot. Violence against people who have nothing to do with the problem is never justified.
Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.
Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
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I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state's monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see "engaging in violence" are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.
TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
Beautiful summary. I specially like that it exposes the power assimetry that is key to any oppressive relationship.
Taking the French Revolution for example, as I've read summaries of in the past, it was really a high nobles hoarding wealth with high taxes versus lower nobles and merchants inciting the peasantry to overthrow the greedy bastards. The famed "let them eat cake" was propaganda used by one of the lower nobles to properly enrage their mobs.
The Catholic Protestant revolution was a nobles and merchants versus the Catholic Church over paying too high a tithe and donations. Martin Luther was a monk recruited and sponsored by the nobles to incite the masses against the Catholic Church's greed.
The American Revolution was also about refusing to pay higher taxes and was lead and sponsored by the biggest land and slave owners.
So pretty much, the line in our history that was crossed and triggered many famous revolutions was in fact money. As long as someone's piece of the pie was threatened, boom! Revolution!
Martin Luther was a monk recruited and sponsored by the nobles to incite the masses
what a pure bullshit
I disagree, there's no beef involved in this. At most it's birdshit. But alright, i'll change it. The lower nobles made use of Luther's rhetoric to incite the masses and stage revolts.
Depends on what kind of mass violence you're thinking of.
The degree to which you can control its extent, direction, and collateral damage is the degree to which you can justify it.
An organized millitary march to capture vital infrastructure and establish defensible positions in preparation for retaliation and most likely war, quite easily justified.
An unhinged hate fueled massacre and mass raping to the point of literally smashing open panic room vaults to drag out more victims to murder and rape, well at least Lemmygrad and Hexbear will still have your back!
Dietrich Bonhoeffer has written some excellent thoughts about this topic.
I recommend the German original texts. There are also English and other translations available.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
A lot of people are probably wondering the same thing, but are not connected to realize this. A lot of people are primed like grasshoppers are to changing into locusts
Whenever it's "the war on/against" something... apparently.
Hmmm I'm going to re-watch Andor and then read some books about the American Revolution and get back with you.
violence is never justified unless it is in self defense, the problem is people interpret self defense in different ways, that seems to be the issue
But I think the fact that the definition of self defense is up for debate calls into question whether violent self defense is ever justified.
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