this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2025

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[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 24 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Voting is not mutually exclusive with whatever your alternative is.

[–] punkisundead 11 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Electoralism does not really just mean indiviuals going to vote. Its a mindset or strategy that focuses mostly on elections and how to influence them or how to gain votes.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Again, I don't see how developing an election based strategy diminishes one's ability to develop simultaneous strategies.

[–] punkisundead 5 points 2 weeks ago

The most obvious is that it uses resources that could be used elsewhere. The amount of resources spent in every election is massive. Groups / orgs that do electoralism often spend most of there resources this way, because they have to compete with way bigger and better founded parties.

Also doing electoralism often is something of an image and credibility thing. To have chances there groups / orgs often try to have a civil / good / appealing image and they often care about that image enough to not do radical / bad optics actions.

Also when you do electoralism you agree to certain conditions of the state to participate. In most states you have to have certain legal structures and processes in place which usually are pretty hierarchical and are really hard / impossible to work around in horizontal and antiauthoritarian ways. This way it makes it (nearly) impossible to implement anarchist concepts such as "unity of goal and practice" (sorry I dont know a better translation, maybe prefiguration fits). Agreeing to be a legal entity that the state recognizes and allows to participate in elections also reduces the field of activities you can do without impacting your ability to do electoralism.

[+] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Voting for people that will kill you instead of ever being convinced to inch towards equality is mutually exclusive with any alternative that might work.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

But voting for people who might kill you because their opponents will kill you buys time while you develop better alternatives.

[+] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -8 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Voting for a genocidal party with a history of invading countries full of people that look like you because they decided to not be slaves to multicolor capitalists is not better, in any way, than voting for a genocidal party with a history of invading countries like you because they decided to not be slaves to white capitalists except they might also target you openly.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Only if you're a single issue voter, which is dumb. If they're equally bad on that one issue, but one is objectively better than the other on most other issues, it is in fact objectively better to vote for the one who is better on the other issues. One of the two will win, damage control is the rational choice.

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The issue is genocide.

The rational choice would be throwing out every politician supporting genocide since genocide never limits its victims. If you vote for genocide you will always eventually become the victim if you do not physically start fighting your government.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Why didn't you throw out every politician supporting genocide then? Perhaps because that's not in your power to do as an individual?

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I did my part in that, by not voting for any politician supporting genocide.

[–] LibertyLizard 0 points 2 weeks ago

Lol. Even for anti-electoralists the point is to do something more impactful than voting. This is just an excuse to be lazy.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What exactly did that accomplish? Now we have a politician that supports genocide AND Russia's invasion of Ukraine AND stripping rights away from everyone who isn't a rich, white, cishet male. "Doing your part" made things objectively worse domestically, and will probably make the genocide worse too since he's BFFs with Netanyahu.

With friends like you who needs enemies?

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Reread your last sentence back to yourself. If you can't figure out why people didn't support your racist right wing genocidier, then irony truly is dead.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I don't support either major party, but I oppose one more than the other. There's a difference between support and damage control. I'm not so callous that I'll allow suffering to increase so I can feel like my hands are squeaky clean. Next time you get a bright idea about how to "help", ask an adult first.

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

We've been doing "damage control" for longer than anyone you have ever met has been alive.

It ended in genocide. Maybe, 'adult', you should not repeatedly do the exact same fucking thing for more than a Century and hope for something different.

Actual adults can see a sunk cost fallacy. Wealth inequality is higher than it's ever been. We're comitting genocide. We have more slaves now than before the 13th was passed.

Yeah, it's great that statistically 20 years after the rest of the world for each human rights milestone we caught up.... Except for the fact pretty much none of those rights are in law, or in the constitution, so they can be taken away if we get too uppity.

Great damage control, genocidal technofeudalism.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I repeat, voting is not mutually exclusive with alternative methods. I never said it was sufficient for change, just that it buys time until those alternatives are mature enough to actually accomplish anything.

This is not sunk cost, this is using a garden hose to try to slow the spread of a fire until the firetruck arrives. Where's the firetruck? All I see are self-proclaimed firefighters sitting at the station, arguing over what kind of firehose to bring. Until the truck pulls up, I'm going to keep at it with the garden hose, and beg my neighbors to bring theirs to help. Because if we keep waiting for you to show up with the truck, the house will be burnt to cinders.

Spend a little less time criticizing my garden hose, and get the fucking firetruck out of the station.

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You have a garden hose that sprays gasoline?

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Metaphors aren't that hard for people with critical thinking skills. Ask one of them to explain it to you.

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Correct, hence why I corrected your logic in your metaphor.

You still don't understand that being shot in the left nut or the right but doesn't change the shooter or the pain.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Very clearly not.

Where's the firetruck?

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It'd get there a lot quicker if you'd stop pretending the firefighters shouldn't even try or are Russian agents or are secretly maga super soldiers or whatever bluemaga nonsense gets around and stopped insisting your hose of gasoline is giving us more time.

[–] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

What? No they wouldn't. They've been putzing around at the station since before either of us were born. What's taking so long? Show me the firetruck. Wheels, engine, ladder, hoses, all assembled and ready to go. The firefighters haven't even started putting it together yet, much less on the road. Tick tock, house is burning. How many more decades do I have to wait?

If you don't want to be accused of being a shill, then stop helping them. Millions of voters refused just like you asked, and now we get genocidal fascists instead of genocidal liberals. MAGA got exactly what they wanted. You might not be a secret agent sent to disperse propaganda, but you definitely fell for one.

[–] shalafi@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

Did that once, just like a cartoon. And while stumbling around bleeding, I stepped on it again. Had to get stitches.

[–] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 week ago

You have to pay taxes and is still under the jurisdiction of the laws, even if you do not vote. Why the fuck am I gonna forfeit my vote if I have to pay taxes? Nah, vote anyways, fuck the system, they want us to pay taxes, we should be loud, both on the streets and on the ballot.

[–] FrowingFostek@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

I appreciate the sentiment, so I upvoted. Voting is integral to a liberal democracy, just start at the local level.

My thinking, being from the US personally, is if you have a solid grass roots coalition who can provide support it's a win. Getting someone elected at the top won't help if you don't have support underneath them.

"If voting worked they would make it illegal" is true, because they disenfranchise voters all the time. Unfortunately, a liberal democracy is the strongest path forward to a better system of government/economic redistribution.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, a liberal democracy is the strongest path forward to a better system of government/economic redistribution.

Citation needed.

[–] FrowingFostek@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

Why? What would a citation afford you?

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Liberal democracy is antithetical to both democracy and freedom.

[–] FrowingFostek@lemmy.world -2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Not gonna engage with anything I said huh? Ok.

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I did. Liberal democracy is not a popular democracy; the average person has no power or rights in it. It is a democracy of the ownership class.

[–] FrowingFostek@lemmy.world -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What form of democracy can you see working in the real world today?

[–] theonlytruescotsman@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

The one that is currently working in the most populous country, the one that has raised the standard of living for the most people in history.

[–] punkisundead 2 points 2 weeks ago

You mean India?