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‘Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
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I actually agree.... We simply ignore the needs of men who are suffering. When was the last time you read a story about a male domestic abuse victim who WASN'T laughed at.
Or like how Google has a doodle for international women's day but never international men's day. Not to be dismissive or insensitive to women's issues, but I've seen boys and young men talk about how little things like that give them the impression that their thoughts and feelings are not valid.
There are ofc men's issues still like how the overwhelming majority workplaces deaths are men or how more men die from suicide than women. Men are more likely to be homeless than women etc
The sexes are supposed to compliment one another. Not compete against one another. We can acknowledge that there are issues for both sides while still being sensitive and respectful.
I think there's a lesson in there about teaching people that weren't around for the formation of a movement about why targeted movements exist.
It's not just with kids but with people that are tuned out... I think too many people fall through the cracks into white power, toxic masculinity, incel groups, etc because on the surface the questions are of course...
"well why don't I have a support group for X? what makes that group of people special? why do they get their own day?"
Like yeah, if nobody's ever explained what women have historically faced to you, feminism and girl power are especially strange concepts to confront.
Maybe having a more positive masculinity movement actually wouldn't be a bad idea just to help people that are feeling a little lost and prevent them from finding "answers" in the wrong places(?)
I think the lesson here is that even if white males are "in power" on a societal level, on an individual level it still benefits everyone to have a safe space, even straight white men. We need a men's support group. I would argue we even need a "white support group". There are unique challenges and difficulties that come with being white. Not to the same degree as being black, for example, but they're a totally different set of issues.
Such a good and concise comment.
do you know if there is one for movember? i always felt that international mens day wasnt really popular because it wasnt 'themed' if you get what i mean. during movember in high school the girls would get those like moustache cutouts and wear them and it all raised awareness for men and boys and there was funding for like, i think it was prostate cancer?
There's more to then even that. Fight Club predicted it. Mass media pushing this expectation onto young boys, but then as teenager and young adults, they have no outlet for machoism. No wood to split, no animals to kill for food, no fascists to kill(yet). Hollywood pushes the Action Hero, and neglects the Science Hero and the Guile Hero.
BTW, isn't it sad that the stand-in for toxic masculinity in fiction is still more positive then real life toxic masculinity symbols. But fiction has to be believable.
Toxic masculinity is the reason for that as well. Being the victim is seen as being less masculine, which is seen as worthy of ridicule.
Toxic masculinity hurts everyone.
When men do bad things: "this is toxic masculinity"
When women do bad things: "this is also toxic masculinity"
When men don't get the support they need. Or are ridiculed for feeling emotions other than anger. And don't feel they can cry without being judged.
Women can absolutely be abusers. That's called shitty people and has nothing to do with masculinity, toxic or otherwise.
Most men cry in front of a woman exactly once.
That's not toxic masculinity. It's toxic femininity and NO ONE is addressing it in a systemic way.
In feminist theory "masculinity" and "femininity" don't mean "what men do" and "what women do" but value systems floating through society affecting people.
So in that sense yes woman can exhibit toxic masculinity, if they reinforce those shitty norms. Likewise men can exhibit toxic femininity... say, comparatively harmless example, by discouraging a tomboy from skating.
It's just one of those gazillions of instances where feminist terminology sucks absolutely donkeyballs because you need to read theory to understand it, which practically noone who calls themselves a feminist actually does, it's all vibes and signals very little analysis they abuse those terms just like the rest of the population. The rest of the population at least has an excuse, they're using the dictionary definition.
In this particular instance, "toxic (male) gender norm" would be much better.
I mean, to get a little meta here, but if feminist theory essentially says "bad things are (toxic) masculinity, good things are femininity (feminism)" that betrays a deeper problem about the attitudes of feminist theorists, doesn't it? Sure, it's a terminology problem, but it's also a problem that those are the terms.
Calling something women do a "toxic male gender norm" is just as problematic.
I've talked to academic feminists about this and their reaction was pretty much "there were good reasons to chose those terms, doing it this way makes sense in the overall theoretical framework, it's an academic term and not for general use, academic terms always get misunderstood that's not a thing limited to feminism". When asked whether, as an academic subject having its own political movement, and being, in the wider sense, sociologists, they shouldn't at least study the societal implications of their terminology: Crickets.
And I can't really blame them. The ones I talked with about this definitely have their heart in the right place, acknowledged all the issues but truth be told if one of them goes against those established terms which are oh so useful equivocations for many a catty bitch they'll get skinned alive by exactly those catty bitches.
It’s called feminist studies - they’ll never say the thing they’re studying is or can be toxic. It’s always the masculine that’s bad, because the very subject name demands it.
so yes men do get laughed at for this kinda stuff, by men and also by women. when men do it, i noticed it doesn't bother me as much truthfully.
i'll say when i'm in more women-friendly, radical feminist spaces (journals, magazines, irl events) there really isn't this negativity around. something like the scumm manifesto does say stuff that can be hurtful or seem hateful (i'd agree it is hateful; i'd also agree it's completely justified and rational given the circumstances) and honestly so much of the tension seems to me to be due to the online nature of this stuff.
are there women-only spaces where a bunch of negative things about men are said? obviously, and i can't for the life of me figure out why it's held to a different standard than other groups outside of the patriarchy being the explanation.
i think treating and seeing women as equal is accepting there are women who have awful takes. women as a group will be like many other groups, they might appear homogeneous and their's a wealth of differences between them.
i'm ok believing some men are toxic, as am i for some women, what i don't do is share that opinion with others if the circumstances aren't appropriate. i think that's where "think before you act" or "think before you talk" comes in.
The leaders of the movement are publishing this shit though. It’s not fringe if it’s the leaders of the movement.
That’s Andrea Dworkin for you. Even though she’s dead, her followers still run the show.
yeah, think my response was responding to something non-existent (like i made up a take to argue against), appreciate your comment. one needs to take the complaints and grievances seriously if they wanna understand or have a meaningful affect.
This is the same argument as with "All Lives matter". Why do people have to be against feminism to talk about issues men face? Because that is what I am seeing. On Lemmy or even Reddit, I didn't see people laugh about male domestic abuse victims. But literally every discussion about it had misogynistic and anti-feminist comments.
The difference between All Lives Matter and this is that there really are gender-specific issues affecting men, and from their side, they feel as if they were All Lives Matter-ed. Think of it as not backlash to feminism, not a zero-sum game. Boys are just now getting to be against feminism because both the mainstream and idiots like Tate tell them that that's what this is about, and they have no better ways to cope with it.
i don't think it's ok for people to laugh at an abuse victim. i also don't think it is as important to work on at present compared to other issues. it's a shame it happens, and i think there are other battles to fight first; like boys for some reason (from the evidence from research i gathered) needing more like physical activity in schools and doing much better when they aren't tied to a desk all day. something like this is important, because testing indicates boys are getting worse especially recently in stuff like math and general literacy.
Because historically bearing rare exceptions, the Feminist Movements have largely been anti-male, anti-trans, and anti-gay (Unless it's lesbians of course)
Seriously look into the Vagina Monologues, it's considered THE definitive feminist piece... in it a woman and a man having consensual sex is considered this great tragedy, but an older woman turning a CHILD into a lesbian by traumatizing her with sex (I know, that's not how that works, but it's how the play says that works) is said to be a good thing.. even including the line "If it was rape it was good rape"
The Feminist Movement simply aren't the good guys (no pun intended), even if we do owe it for Women's Liberation
Well, the male domestic abuse victim is probably laughed at, because he is the strong powerful man and should therefore not be able to get abused by the weak woman. The same for male rape victims: man like sex and always want sex and therefore they can't be raped, because they like it. These stereotypes are a problem and feminism is trying to get rid of them. It will take some time to redefine the societal picture of man and woman.
Are they though? I've never seen any evidence of feminists reining in their fellow feminists
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/18/the_misdirected_passion_of_andrea_dworkin/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/15/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2552&context=clr;We
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2021/07/26/radical-feminism-has-a-humanity-problem/
https://jacobin.com/2017/07/radical-feminism-second-wave-class
I'm not saying this is representative, mind you, only that criticism of feminists by other feminists (notably for employing damaging stereotypes) is out there if you actually look for it.
Thank you! Looking through them now.
Can you name the actual feminist(s) which you're referring to..? You won't really see feminists doing feminist things if you're not going out of your way to participate in the feminist movement. I'm pretty sure most people's entire idea of "feminism" is youtube videos from 2015 complaining about dumb misandrists with colorful hair screaming "kill all men" or something.
Feminism isn't about "men bad, women good" or "women need to be more privileged in society", it's about minimizing or erasing gender norms/stereotypes, even if those perceptions sometimes benefit women. Gender/sexual equality is the point of the movement, it recognizes that women are favoured by the judicial system when it comes to cases related to violence & domestic disputes, and that society thinks that men should be big and strong and scary and that society shuns men who face problems in life or are wronged as "weak", and that young people (especially men) are lonely, and that women are unlikely to receive as much benefit from the same labour (e.g., promotions/raises, perceived expertise) compared to men, etc. etc.
And the movement recognizes that those problems are often mostly or entirely caused by fucked up perceptions about gender that our society has built over an inconceivably large amount of time, and that we still apply to the modern day, that women are weak and beautiful and pure and dumb and dependent and subordinate to men and nurturing and need to be protected, and that men are strong and smart and do all the dirty work and independent and providing and commanding and need to protect women. That women and men are treated certain ways in some areas and get certain privileges over the other because of the way society views the concept of/separation between "man" and "woman" (and pushes against the view or "neither man or woman") in the first place.
Too many people think, because of few reactionary misandrists being significantly more publicized than actual gender equality movements, that feminism is about "we need to make men 2nd-class citizens", rather than "these artificially constructed and inaccurate ideas of differences between men and women are harmful to society and cause us to force certain perceptions on people, making us be biased against a certain gender in many areas or shun those of a certain gender who don't fit into certain stereotypes". Also some people don't really care either way and want to be mad, but that happens with everything.
Another thing that is always spammed every time anything related to women's struggles or just general women's rights (even if feminism isn't mentioned) is "but what about men?" which is ignoring the entire point... we're in a collective struggle, we should talk about all of our issues, even gender issues, and not be out to try to 1-up each other every time one of the "other" groups have their issues talked about. And we can recognize that women often face issues men don't face as much, and men often face issues that women don't face as much, and we can recognize that often times the difference of magnitude of struggles based on gender is caused by the fact that society treats different genders so irrationally different in the first place.
Some want to throw away the concept of "feminism"/"gender & sexuality equality" and instead exclusively use "egalitarianism", but I think that's kind of just trying to detract from the issue and is as absurd as saying we shouldn't think about "racial equality" as its own concept either, and saying "women have all the rights men have, but they're just greedy and want more" is as dumb as saying "racial minorities have all the rights that white people have, but they're just greedy and want more". Also because of this exact idea the term "egalitarianism" is generally associated with libertarians which is just... eugh... no thanks.
BTW this is tangential to the topic, but when people say "toxic masculinity" or "patriarchy" the idea isn't that it's mens fault and everything would be so much better if they just drop their toxicity and masculinity. It's more generally referring to how historically, in societies where men were at the "top" of the social hierarchy, created were the perceptions that men are supposed to be a certain way, and that women are supposed to be a certain other way, based entirely around the most idolized men of the times having certain characteristics/powers that dictated their place in society. These ideas still, for the most part, persist to the modern day in an altered & tamer form, and they still affect how all of us who are raised in these cultures perceive gender identity. That's why it's said men are victims of "patriarchy" or "toxic masculinity" too, because modern gender perceptions/issues are tightly tied to where they originated, and those societal/governmental structures are still "here" in a very warped but slightly recognizable form.
But that IS part of feminism. Who is putting these women in check? Serious question. Link me to some of these good feminists please.
I just want to quickly clarify that's not what I think. I don't think feminism as a whole is about putting men down, and that's a hilariously egocentric viewpoint to have anyway...yeah this whole giant movement that says it's about women is actually about men...come on bro get over yourself lol.
I think feminism is about raising women up. It just doesn't have any mechanism to (1) say "hey we did it! We achieved equality in this area!" (college admissions for example), (2) strive for equality in areas where men are at a disadvantage (dirty, dangerous, physical jobs for example), or (3) address societal problems that uniquely affect men (lack of role models, for example).
This is the WHOLE POINT of "what about men?" Feminists do not care about male struggles. And I'm not talking about the ivory tower theorists that no one listens to. I don't know what they think because it doesn't matter. What matters is what everyday feminists think and do and say.
If feminism is about equality, then for the love of God please help men a little. We're really fucking struggling and could use a hand here. Not asking for a lot, just a little acknowledgement and appreciation and maybe a policy initiative here and there.
The entirety of the internet is putting people in check. You don't even have to go to specific feminists to see it, any times a misandrist freak-out goes viral there's immediately a visceral reaction to it by even the "woke" parts of the internet and a bunch of feminists being like "yea s/he's not one of us". Anyone can call themselves anything, and every movement has radicals, but every feminist knows that those radicals are a joke and just easy bait for anti-feminist rhetoric.
Jesus christ you really did filter out literally everything you just read didn't you... every time "feminism" comes up it's literally feminists telling you "it's not just about women" but people like you just completely ignore it. What entity exactly is "this whole giant movement" that's saying it's about women? I explained where the gendered terms of the movement come from, the historical reasons why they're called that, so I would hope you're not just taking the name at face value. There is literally not a singular feminist that says "yeah this movement isn't about men at all, we only care about women". Many issues in this world primarily screw over women though, and those are often talked about, which I assume is where your confusion comes from.
What is this even supposed to mean? You think feminists aren't happy and don't take pride in when a goal like more equal treatment in something based on gender or sexual orientation is achieved? That literally proves that you don't actually pay attention to anything that has to do with the movement and you're just making rage up lol.
Except they do. Literally one of the most important parts of the feminist movement is encouraging people to pursue career choices that societal perceptions discourage a specific gender from doing. Especially when it comes to dirty, dangerous, physical jobs. Do you know just how much women working trades/physical labour is talked about in various feminist groups? It is one of the primary workplace issues, generally women are completely bullied out of working such jobs and are seen as "incompetent" when it comes to professions like welders, mechanics, electricians, or any other form of physically demanding jobs. I have witnessed this firsthand, as well as my former best friend literally being a welder and constantly describing how awful women are treated by the people working these jobs, how they're constantly sexualized/objectified and harassed, how they have to always be afraid in their own workplace because of this. This is one of the most important things feminists are actively working on, equalizing trades and making it so both men and women are treated fairly and well. Feminism is also often intertwined with worker's rights, guarantees to employees, safety in the workplace, etc. which fits into this excelently.
What? I'm mentally facepalming right now... feminists are constantly encouraging positive role models, educators, leaders, etc. for everyone (including men), what are you on about? Additionally one of feminists' primary concerns is access to healthcare, and especially relating to feminists' concerns is mental healthcare, something that affects men a lot. They recognize what causes many of these problems, and they work to fix them. Feminists fight against negative influences like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate.
Many role models for men were/are feminists, and feminists actively are engaged in propping boys up and encouraging positive traits in them (as well as girls). I think one everyone can relate to hearing is Mr. Rogers.
It really is not. The point is to say "women's issues don't matter because men also have other issues". It is a way to detract from any discussion about women's rights, to try to take over the conversation to say "we have it worse in some different way", to try to emphasize the idea they have that women are privileged and men are the ones that really have it bad. It is never done to add to the conversation, but to change the conversation.
You are straight up just constructing a strawman and beating it to death. What feminist discussions have you attended? Any at all?
That is quite literally what we are trying to do. But people like you refuse it and try to turn it around as a way to disparage other groups and diminish discussions about women's struggles and gender in society. And you make strawmen constructed of some 2014 internet perception of a "feminist" pretending feminists actually believe in that, meanwhile "men's rights activists"/anti-feminists are represented by literal far-right sex traffickers (as opposed to the many positive role models who are feminists). Like can you name any popular, modern-day, prominent-among-feminist influencers that are even a small fraction of the absurdity of that? Feminist role model influencers are random often apolitical chill people like Technoblade
lmao.
Yeah I'm just gonna call you a liar. All you're doing is saying "oh yeah we're totally working on that" but that's just blatant bullshit. Becaaaaause
You fucking shut the conversation down any time it goes there. You define men's issues as being impossible to discuss. You seriously believe that never once in the history of any of these discussions, somone saying "but what about men" has wanted to add to the conversation rather than derail it?
Show me the feminist initiatives to get women into trades. Show me the feminists working to get more male teachers. Show me the feminists funding scholarships for men. Because not only have I never seen anything like that, I've never even HEARD of anything like that. And I've gone looking.
Okay, you're just copping out of the conversation and ignoring pretty much all the points you don't like but I'll give you what you want.
No, we just have the reaction anyone would have if we were talking about problems we face and someone else was like "yeah but what about these other issues I face". You're honestly telling me you think someone who just says "oh yeah your broken leg is bad but what about my broken arm? that's bad, if not worse, and i'm tired of people talking about your leg when nobody is talking about my arm" is doing so in good faith? When do feminists shut down such conversations about men? Why do you insist on just making shit up about feminists saying not to discuss men's issues?
I don't know every person in history who has done that, but when you respond to literally anything discussing women's struggles with "but what about men who have X bad" it is more often then not a quite obvious attempt at diminishing the issue at hand. There are people who say "I'm not a woman but here's my perspective as a man who's faced similar issues", who are adding to the conversation, and then there are people who instead take the opportunity to try to find some way to frame the problem as not as serious as men's problems, and then often devolve it into blaming women for men's problems and try to say "well actually women are privileged" to completely avoid the point. Feminists do not get in the way of issues affecting men and are usually the primary proponents of solving problems faced regardless of gender – most are not ones to go into discussions about how young men are facing loneliness to say "but loneliness isn't just a men's thing, women also face record high loneliness! and in fact women have it worse because nobody acknowledges their loneliness epidemic!" yet this is exactly the reaction you see droves of which are highly popular on social media every time women's issues get brought up.
Yeah this is how I know you're talking out of your ass. How did you go through the entire 2000s-2010s without seeing all the initiatives to get women to work in traditionally male work places? Regardless I'll give you what you want, talking about the issues faced with women not working in traditionally male-dominated workplaces and encouraging women in trades and many others:
https://www.apprenticeship.gov/employers/diversity-equity-inclusion-accessibility/women-in-apprenticeship#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Department%20of%20Labor%27s%20Women%27s%20Bureau%20has%20awarded%20%247.4,as%20well%20as%20nontraditional%20occupations.
"The U.S. Department of Labor's Women's Bureau has awarded $7.4 million in active grant funding to help recruit, train and retain more women in quality pre-apprenticeship and registered apprenticeship programs as well as nontraditional occupations."
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2023-06-01/constructing-a-place-for-women-in-the-skilled-trades
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2018/08/28/how-to-help-women-sustain-careers-in-male-dominated-spaces/
https://www.usaid.gov/engendering-industries/gender-equality-best-practices-framework
Literally this entire Reddit thread is full of feminists discussing exactly that, and quite clearly having a higher amount of male educators than we currently have is pretty important to them, with the reception to the topic being overwhelmingly positive and linking many resources on the matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1776kfn/what_is_the_impact_of_the_lack_of_male_teachers/
The origin in scholarships for historically disadvantaged groups is based in the fact that they faced many significant barriers in the past to attending college, and these scholarships were crucial to getting e.g. women, black people, to attend. Your question is a bit like asking about racial minority rights movements creating scholarships for white people. That being said there are a TON of scholarships for men (and for specific groups of whites), here's a list:
https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarships-by-type/scholarships-for-men/
https://scholarships360.org/scholarships/scholarships-for-men/
https://www.aamn.org/scholarships
Plus you have things like this which are supported by people who think like you: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2022/04/13/womens-scholarships-and-awards-eliminated-to-be-fair-to-men/?sh=519c6bd87fe2
Your point is assuming that men have disproportionately higher of a financial burden to going to college than women. Which they don't. In fact, women have significantly more student loan debt than men and are generally less financially independent in our society so it's the other way around. Men's college problems are more skewed towards the various other social issues that feminists work to improve, i.e. access to mental health services (which often disproportionally affects men) and harmful gender norms, like once again causes men to be perceived as not fit for child-related activities (like teaching). The result is that, in general, scholarships are a lot more effective for women than for men, so there is more initiative for scholarships for women, while college health resources are more directed towards men.
In general feminists aren't very pro-gender based scholarship to begin with, although there are a lot of scholarships for both women and men (for example MenTeach which is made specifically to get men teaching) which are supported by many feminists.
Also things like this are mostly just an American thing, scholarships like that are generally rare outside of the US... but in the US, Feminists are a LOT more concerned with completely reforming the broken education system that requires you to have to have scholarships to go in the first place.
Lmao you obviously haven't. I was able to find all of these with actual seconds of searching. You are a liar.
...yeah, at least some of the time. Is that so hard to believe? We have whole specialist medical centers dedicated to broken legs but not a single broken arm specialist. Yeah, usually setting a broken arm isn't that difficult, but sometimes it is, and we don't have anyone to help.
True, and for that reason I understand your frustration. It does happen a lot, and there's a lot of shitty incel types out there eager to disrupt a good faith conversation. But this isn't a topic about women. This is explicitly a topic about how men view feminism. I'm not going off-subject or derailing here: this is the subject.
Dude I WORK IN THE TRADES, I think I might have a better view of it than you. Been a blue collar laborer all my life, and I don't recall ever seeing a jobs program for women that wasn't geared towards something white-collar, even if it may nominally interact with blue collar labor sectors. In any case, you linked a few government diversity initiatives, which is nice, not really doing much, but nice. ~~None of it is feminists.~~ Actually, I've thought about this a bit more, and I think it's fair to assume that the US DoL Women's Bureau contains a lot of feminists and uses feminist ideology in its policies. I still maintain that it's not doing much and it's not something that feminists give much thought to. But I'll concede it's on the radar. I was not aware of this or similar programs. Maybe if we 100x them we could start to address inequality in the trades.
I wouldn't say it's "overwhelmingly positive", though there is much more support of the idea than I was expecting. This thread is a counter-example. This response strikes me as particularly honest and self-reflective...it's not malicious, per se, it's just indifference.
Okay, there's a gazillion small scholarships out there, statistically some of them will be for men. That's not what I meant. I meant an organized, concerted, well-funded effort to increase college participation rates by men by offering scholarships.
No, I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I was referring to the gender gap in college enrollment, not any gap in cost. Scholarships were just the first tool that came to mind that could be theoretically used to increase male college enrollment.
Tell Dworkin that. She might come out of the grave to fight you on that point.
I don't think we ignore the needs of men. They're just sometimes overshadowed because of other pressing matters like not being able to afford a roof over your head or to feed your family, then whose more likely to get into substance abuse? Men, trying to provide for their families but the debt is mounting and school is basically unachievable. Work wages are stagnating inflation is rising because the corpos have us all by the balls. Is there a culture that tries to pigeonhole men to bottle up their emotions in America? Absolutely. I just think the greater fight is improving these lychpins of society, and we can do that and also address men's problems, but in a lot of ways, aren't women's lack of equality a big part of men's problems in the first place? If women were paid equally and treated equally by men and other women, and society as a whole, they could take care of themselves better, provide more for their families, not feel like they have to choose between a family and a career, etc etc etc. All of it is inter-related dammit. I do get what the person in the original article is trying to say. I just don't think that they did a particularly good job of expressing it in a relatable way.