this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
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Former President Barack Obama said a way forward for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is only possible if people acknowledge the “complexity” of the situation.

“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable,” Obama said in an interview on the podcast “Pod Save America.”

The former president’s comments come as the Israeli military focuses its offensive against Hamas in Gaza City and northern parts of the enclave.

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[–] delitomatoes@lemm.ee 38 points 1 year ago (4 children)

If the entire holy land was nuked and radioactive, people would still try to occupy the wasteland so they could get back in first. Don't think there is a solution

[–] andrewrgross 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Honestly, this is nonsense.

They aren't fighting over Jerusalem or Bethlehem or Jericho. This is a war over grazing lands and a beach town.

If you look away from Gaza for a moment to the other Palestinian territory -- the occupied West Bank -- you'll see gangs of a hooligans in pickup trucks with ski masks smashing water wells and killing cattle in small desert towns like it's high noon at the O.K. Corral.

The whole religious component is largely a distraction. There are people living on real estate that other people who have much bigger guns want. The solution is the same as it's always been: give folks a fair deal.

It's not a coincidence that this latest conflict is in Gaza. Gaza isn't religiously significant. It's just the densest, most brutal concentration camp in Israel. This is not over religion.

[–] Orbituary@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But it's in the name of religion, so it draws in the Christo-fascist zionists alongside the Israeli ones. They don't need educated support, just support. Religious nuance helps increase that.

[–] andrewrgross 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's totally true. I only mean to say that the fundamental drivers are typical to those outside of the holy lands. But you're right that the religious component is definitely leveraged. I'll also credit @keardap@lemmy.selfhost.quest for pointing out that the American Evangelical Christian nationalist movement is a huge contributor to the conflict. They're far more numerous than American Jews, and seem to be have greater influence on American policy in Israel than American Jews do.

[–] Orbituary@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

That's really what I was insinuating as well. The National Prayer Breakfast needs to be ignored wholly by our politicians, but members from both "sides" attend because it's politically advantageous.

A documentary called The Family does a great job at explaining this.

[–] parascent@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

There is oil just off Gaza's coast. But Israhell already controls that.

[–] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Tiktok says this is all about the Ben Gurion Canal Project. I haven't had the time to validate the potential veracity, but it seemed like an interesting rabbit hole.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

Thanks. I’m interested.

[–] keardap@lemmy.selfhost.quest 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This war is lead by religious nutjobs.

Hamas heads enjoy vast wealth, but the foot soldiers are all religious as fuck.

On the Israeli side, the settlers in the West Bank are lead by religion. They want to conquere the whole area promised by God. They also want to demolish Israel (the state) and live under religious law of the Halacha. They can live much more comfortable life within the green baorder, so it's not about real estate. They are sponsored by Evangelical Christian from the USA that hope they will bring Gog and Magog.

Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are all agriculturally productive, but also not productive enough to sustain their population, they all depend on imports. Moreover, the region depends on water desilation.

[–] andrewrgross 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is all true. I still think it's a distraction from the major underlying causes, particularly when discussing it with casual observers. Religion is often wielded to manipulate people and justify things, but I still contend that the underlying forces motivating the conflict are fundamentally similar to most land disputes and not a result of this being some wildly unique situation.

[–] jimbo@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There are people living on real estate that other people who have much bigger guns want.

What is the big distinction between the "people" and the "other people" that makes them different groups of people? Hint: the word starts with an "r" and ends with "eligion".

[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Flood it. God.did; worked apparently.

*Albeit briefly. So, I reckon we can shift the gulf some.

[–] APassenger@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I think the proposal to nuke it may also leave it flooded - depends on the yield and qty.

[–] Orbituary@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Mythology won't help here. That's partly the problem already.

[–] QuestioningEspecialy@kbin.social -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

disregarding that fucked-ass comment,

God.did

is this a DJ Khaled reference?

[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The radioactive halflife of a nuke explosion is quite short, if we want a long term solution we need...Chernobyl 2.

[–] FiskFisk33@startrek.website 1 points 1 year ago

nuclear boogaloo

[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

how about an agnostic democracy that israelis and palestinians can both live in? like a european country or something...

[–] P1r4nha@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, but the whole point of Israel, is that it's a home for Jewish people. That this apparently means an ethno apartheid state, is revolting. I have yet to hear a zionist to provide a good solution.

On that front Obama is correct: how are you going to create a Jewish state surrounded by Muslim states that oppose your existence fundamentally?

But at this point you can argue that living as a Palestinian in Israel and the occupied territories is worse than living in many (but clearly not all) Muslim countries as a non-Muslim.

So religious states, democracies or not, do exist and kinda can make it work in some cases, even if I would prefer a secular democracy for myself any day.

[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

why the fuck do we need a jewish state? do we have a christian state? a buddhist state? not really. religious states are an outdated way to do government.

[–] jungle@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Breaking my own rule here, but whatever.

There's no need for a Jewish state per se. There's a need for a state for Jews, so they can live without fear of being persecuted, like they have been for hundreds of years.

Same reason there's a need for a Palestinian state.

[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

so a european style democracy with a constitution that has "congress shall make no law" types of sentences in it

[–] Cringe2793@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

And yet, Muslim states exist.

[–] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 16 points 1 year ago

As someone living in muslim state: no, religious state shouldn't exists.

[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

they shouldn't. it's an ultra conservative old way of doing government.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

It’s still a good idea.