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He Infiltrated a Notorious White Nationalist Group. Now, He’s Being Sued for Exposing Them
(www.rollingstone.com)
this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2023
708 points (98.6% liked)
politics
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Hope the lawsuit exposes them more. It should be 100% illegal to be anonymous to be part of a domestic terrorist groups our a hate group like this. Do what Germany does with nazis.
As an attorney, I would absolutely love to have subpoena and discovery power against right wing loons. I’m surprised they sued in the first place.
Exactly no one can accuse them of being smart.
Bone apple tea!
What did they write in the first place?
Since Patriot Front itself as an organization is not party to the suit how much can reasonably be gotten from them that wasn't in the leak? And I assume they've all been sanitizing their electronic devices and destroying anything remotely incriminating leading up to this lawsuit. Probably even distancing themselves from Patriot Front itself.
Heard from a friend; Just as real champagne only comes from France, only facists from Germany can be called Nazis. All others a simply sparkling facists.
c'mon, man, "sparkling white supremacists" was right there waiting for you to take it
White Zin-Heil-dell
Your friend is Nazi.
Champagne for my true friends, And true pain for the sparkling fascists.
Together, we can make anything better. Up vote for you
Not to undercut you, but a study of German police and such recently found there are a LOT of Nazis gaining power...
I heard they've naizies in the military n in their police ranks etc.. do you know/ can You verify?
I don't know this source that well, but it very recently claimed that Nazi symbols and child porn were found in police chats. I lean more towards believing it after NPR reported in 2020 about Germany investigating their own police during a noticeable rise in "Far-Right Extremism" around the country.
USA Today ran it, so that's some amount of a known-quantity. I'd say the accusation has definitely been made and isn't made up. The veracity of the accusation will have to be determined through the courts.
https://ustoday.news/nazi-symbols-and-child-pornography-found-in-german-police-chats/
TYVM
NP
Now, define "domestic terrorist group" and "hate group" and do so in such a way that someone explicitly looking to attack the causes you believe in can't manage to count people you support in either of those groups. Because that's the hard part.
Also the bit where you have to throw out the 1st Amendment - freedom of speech that doesn't apply to even wildly unpopular ideas isn't actually freedom of speech because only unpopular ideas ever need protecting and exactly how far into unpopular, hated, reviled and abhorrent ideas you have to go before things become illegal is exactly how strong those freedoms are. Henry Louis Mencken once wrote, “The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.”
Just imagine a hard right fundie christian conservative judge getting to rule whether or not a group falls under the definitions you give, and they'll rule it accurately for any hard and fast cases but also will use any flexibility you give against you.
I mean, I hate white nationalism just as much as the next guy. But if you go around making it illegal to be anonymous or part of a particular group, whether they're considered terrorist or otherwise, that's bad. It gives the next party in power precedent to make being part of your group illegal. That's why freedom of speech is so important.
I think associating with a group that believes in the creation of an ethnostate should remain legal so that associating with a group that believes in the dismantling of capitalism remains legal.
The paradox of tolerance is real, and not all things are equal.
If you allow a group that wants to murder to organize, they will eventually murder.
Banning genocide enthusiast groups doesn't mean you also have to ban bird watchers.
I agree, but given that police have tried to charge Cop City protesters with terrorism we need to be really careful and scrutinize any new laws designed to stop these groups and how it may be intentionally or unintentionally harmful to littigamate activism and protest.
That's a reasonable point.
Writing good laws is difficult.
Can we learn to discern between legitimate uses of a term and illegitimate ones? Can we accept it's okay to call hate groups terrorists while their protesters are not? Can we accept reality for what it is?
We can. Our justice system and politics on the other hand seems hell bent not to.
This is why I'm generally very cautious about suggesting new laws to limit behaviour, and am more supportive of private action (e.g., companies firing Nazis rather than criminalizing being a Nazi). People that are left of center tend to forget that people that are right of center are often able to use the exact same laws written by those on the left to suppress progressive views.
All of this ends up being a double-edged sword. You need to think of every possible way that a law could be misapplied, or can unintentionally cause harm, before moving forward. Because someone is going to intentionally misapply it for personal or political advantage.
Yeah, I used to be a "free speech absolutist" too. Used to harp on about how important it is that we allow all views to be spread, regardless of how disgusting it might be... Then I grew up and realized how harmful that idea is to society.
Slippery slope fallacy isn't enough to convince me that having laws similar to Germany is going to lead to oppression or something. These ideologies have no place in modern society, and they should be given no quarter.
These people use your ideal of free speech absolutism against you, and until we realize there needs to be limits, we will never progress as a society because all of our time, focus, and resources will need to be on fighting this shit over and over and over.
I thought "clear and present danger" took care of this sort of thing.
Not sure where I fall in this conversation, but, imo all hate speech is a clear and present danger. Every time you preach hate, even if you don't have a specific immediate call to action, you are speaking to people that will take it as a call to action. I think the clear and present danger idea is really giving human beings far too much credit. Normalizing hate makes assholes think they have the support of their peers, which leads to bad things, every time. In that sense hate speech is violence. Try being on the receiving end of hate speech and you will understand just how clear and present the danger really is.
My single-sentence comment seems to have caused me to be misunderstood.
I'm wondering, why is the "clear and present danger" doctrine NOT being used to shut these racists down? Because from my perspective, racist hate speech is clearly dangerous.
Because,as we've seen in this thread, other people are easily manipulated.
I'm not a free speech absolutist.
A free speech absolutist would say libel should be legal, and I'd disagree. There are certain things the government can do to ensure a person's right to free speech doesn't infringe upon anothers right to health, happiness, etc, and I think that's okay, but that people really need to be wary of such things so that power doesn't get too concentrated. But I wouldn't say I'm an absolutist.
Im just saying you shouldn't make it illegal to be a part of a particular group, because then the next party in power will have precedent to make it illegal to be a part of a different group.
Agreed. The first Gay and Lesbian liberation groups people operated with aliases because infiltration could mean their persecution under the law. To fight an unjust rule of law anonymity to a degree is needed to shield the just. That someone unjust can utilize that same shield is an unfortunate consequence.
The difference is if people still think your version of justice is deplorable when you come out from behind the shield then the consequences are yours to reap. In this instance it's not a matter of people wanting to be able to love each other publicly and get married it's people wanting to crush people beneath a boot so the issue is a little less gray. Caveat emptor.
You make a good point but whar do we do about these white nationalist and fascist?
Lock they up ?
What do you think we do with Nazis?
edit: not sure why this is sitting at -1 right now, germany barely does anything against Nazis on a state level. In fact they support them and allow them to grow with barely any hinderance. Check out the NSU Murders, their relationship with the office for constitutional protection (Verfassungschutz) and their reaction and prosecution of the perpetrators. Bonus if you look at Germanys handling of far right groups and people online, in the military and in the police. Extra-credit is if you look how they treat leftist and progressive photojournalists and activists. Extrajudicial searches and wiretapping, smear campaigns, etc.
elect them to political office
lmao exactly, not sure what the commenter I replied to thinks we do, but it’s basically: “nothing” at best and “allow them to spread their dangerous ideology” or “use taxpayer money to fund terror groups” at worst
https://files.catbox.moe/dcusus.mp4
Yep…
Alternative gegen Deutschland polling at 20% a few weeks ago
Germany is all talk. They try to PR that they're so anti fascist and pro freedom, but the numbers don't lie. Germany only cares about money
So no different then America.