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As a guy who's trying dating again, there's something that keeps coming up that kinda bugs me: talking to women who just put in the bare minimum of effort, expect me to carry the conversation and make all the first moves.
I don't give two shits about traditional gender roles and I'm all about subverting them. However, I think if you're in the same boat but still wanna call yourself a "passenger princess" and expect the guy to do everything, you're kind of a hypocrite.
Just want to let you know that you aren't alone. I have talked to a number of women who advocate for things like DEI and acceptance (which is something I also believe quite strongly in) but often default to preferring more traditional gender norms in dating. When pressed on the issue (not like I'm interrogating them just through normal conversations and getting to know them) they will inevitably say that it is ultimately "just their preference".
What I find so odd about that "preference" is if a man behaves in accordance with the traditional/societal gender norms in the beginning of the courting process, why is it surprising that they do the same thing later in the relationship when it comes to sharing emotional labor or various types of household chores?
I know the below is taking it to a bit of an extreme example but that behavior and "preference" often reminds me the sentiment "the only moral abortion is my abortion". Like I get it, there are a lot of shitty people out there who have no interest in putting in the effort, and they absolutely are not worth the time and effort, but when you do meet someone who is willing to put in that effort, it isn't really fair to treat them like all those other people.
Men are in a kind of catch-22. Women say they want one thing but their actions usually say they want the opposite.
Not really. It's quite easy to understand. They generally want feminism when it benefits them, but traditional gender roles when it benefits them.
I don't blame them though, I also want things that benefit them. But it's a dick move to do it with feminism, which is supposed to mean equality.
It's not equality when they can pick and choose when to be equal.
Isn't egalitarianism the term for equality?
NGL I searched the term. Egalitarianism is about all people.
Feminism is only about eliminating the unfair inequalities between men and women.
Yeah and then you got the "marrying kind" type of guys who cheat on their wife cause shes "frigid"
I've got a theory that women put more effort into dating apps than we think. It's just spread across so many more people.
Oh yeah, I've seen the other side of things through female friends. They generally have the opposite problem as men.
I'd heard about guys doing stupid shit on dating apps like sending unsolicited dick pics or just going straight for sexual stuff and figured it was maybe a "yeah it happens once in a while" kinda thing, because I'd personally never do something like that. But in fact it seems like a large portion of the interactions are just that bad.
So I can understand not putting in a lot of effort initially. Starting with small talk and making sure it's not a waste of your time. I do the exact same thing.
But even after it feels like I've started to establish a rapport with someone, the conversation still can feel incredibly one-sided. It's like, okay, at this point you're just kinda being disrespectful. And it happens over and over again.
Drop these conversations, let them go cold. This person clearly has no affinity with you or doesn't value you. Move on.
Yes, thank you, I never would have figured that out without your brilliant insight.
Unfortunately, because of the aforementioned probationary period at the start of any conversation, it can take some time before it becomes clear that the other person just isn't that interested.
Can I still be annoyed at my time and effort being wasted? Or is it just my fault for being a man on a dating app?
Morta is trying to fix your problem. Stop resisting and stop being a baby! /s
No wonder. Good luck
I mean, I think alittle? Not because of the reasons you think, though, and it's not really 'your fault'. More of a pitfall that most people fall into.
TLDR: ditch the apps and try to get out into more social situations through clubs and sports. The 'right one' will come along when you are more socially able an mm you'll likely make friends along the way (genuine friends are WAY more important for staying sane).
So, tinder specifically objectifies and compresses you into a blurb and some photos - it basically cans you for mass consumption. When you finally get 'bought', you only get a chat box to communicate unless you actually exchange contacts, and the whole thing's kind of terrible in general because of that. I've tried bumble and it's pretty much a similar thing.
There's this thing sometimes called the 'predator/prey relationship model' by feminists, and dating apps explicitly reinforce this model, with the only minor change being that bumble required the woman to open the interaction. The predator/prey relationship makes it so that in our society, dudes are expected to go out, find a random woman they fancy, and 'pounce' them, essentially. Originally, this was quite literal if you have heard some stories of relationships starting in the 40s and 50s where a couple got together because the guy was just constantly unrelenting. This has shifted to being more egalitarian and consensual but still requires the guy to basically peacock to gain the woman's approval. Once it officially becomes a relationship, the woman is expected to be submissive while the man is expected to be dominant. It's a pretty old-fashioned relationship style that still affects modern dating today. Some folks even still subscribe to it.
The better model that I think is more natural is to just go out and find new friends and groups I can participate in. This way, anyone you might date sees you in more context. You get more practice being social, which can be helpful in actually getting someone to become attracted to you, at which point they might actually start putting in effort.
This kind of thing drives me mad.
If we both like each other, why don't we communicate like adults instead of playing some stupid game?
Exactly.
I think the number of women* who are looking for a man to spend time with because she enjoys his personality are outnumbered by women who like the attention they get when they post a picture of the meal her date paid for to Instagram.
*here defined as "adult female humans somewhere between the age of majority and menopause existing in the present day found in the Western, English-speaking world" for those of you who want to so helpfully remind me that women in South Sudan or Mongolia that aren't like that.
Well, then there's another stupid game... "Hey hon' do I look fat in these jeans?"
"Positively rotund. How'd you even fit through the door to get in here? I'm amazed your shins haven't given out under the strain."
Push those """"tests"""" right back down their throats with a second hand toilet plunger.
Same, I am bi, and that is the reason I stopped trying to date women, or anyone who behaves like that for good measure, because some guys try to pull that same stunt.
I want a partner who is as interested and as into dating me as I am into dating them, someone who puts the time in and makes an effort, makes me and my time feel valued, and is also willing to to invest themselves and their time on me, and I don't know if I was just unlucky, but I never found a woman who was into that. But then again, I pretty much only dated teens and women in their early 20s, as I liked dating people on my own age group and it was at those ages that I was actively dating women.
But from an outsider's perspective, now on my late 30s, the straight dating market looks awful, I think I'll stick with men.
I keep hearing horror stories on lesbian dating market, males seems to be doing fine and only group getting along lol
also, all these theories on domestic abuse but don't lesbians have the highest rates of abuse?
They do, according to the studies I have read. And unlike a lot of studies, that default to male violence in straight cases of domestic violence, a lot of the lesbic cases seem to be tagged as mutual violence.
Don't know if it is bias on the measuring bodies, since a lot of people claim female on male violence is not a thing, and that the moment a man strikes a woman, no matter the circumstances, it is male on female. Including a case I witnessed, where a female family member attacked her boyfriend with a knife, he disarmed her and since he bruised her while doing so, he was removed from the house and lost custody of his own daughter.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10751048/
This study found no significant differences in victimization types between same-sex and opposite-sex intimate partner violence for females, and no differences in physical and sexual abuse for males. Small sample sizes might have affected these findings.
This one so absolutely fucking much, holy shit. After a year of dating apps and literally only getting one actual conversation (that didn't go anywhere, but they were very nice) I've pretty much just said fuck it, I do well enough being a hermit I don't need to be dating.
Frankly a lot less stress.
I don't see much problem with this. It's one thing to advocate for everyone having greater freedoms to form non-heteronormative-style relationships, and an entire other thing to necessarily want that for yourself. That's what Feminism is about after all, a broadening of accepted lifestyles and freedoms - not necessarily a complete shift to a paradigm that prohibits the previous one. In this kind of case, it just sounds like you are discovering up front that you two are not seeking the same type of relationship, which is good to find out early.
It's kind of like advocating for a bike lane in your city despite you not biking and having no interest in biking. I don't think you're a hypocrite for not using freedoms you advocate for.