this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
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[–] ItsAFake@lemmus.org 93 points 8 months ago (3 children)

And now there's a precedent set to help stop with your school shootings America, everytime an underage person gets hold of and uses a gun on other people, you can now charge the parents, once a couple more go down you watch how quickly people start properly securing their guns away or more on the extreme side, just give most of them up.

You have something to help stop school shootings, please use it America, it's too saddening seeing how many children die at your school's when it could be dealt with just be properly securing your guns away from children.

[–] NateNate60@lemmy.world 34 points 8 months ago (29 children)

This case will cause a chilling effect but in a backward sort of way. The reality is that nobody is likely to be convicted in the way Crumbley was, because Crumbley was so unbelievably stupid it was literally criminal. So the only people who will be convicted under this precedent are the equally stupid.

But more intelligent parents will take note, get scared, and hopefully lock up their guns so their insane kids can't use them to shoot up the school.

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[–] LesserAbe@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Hmm better make a reminder about this before I head into work as a district attorney

[–] teamevil@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Yeah you'd better especially if you're a shitty parent giving an emotionally troubled teen access to a weapon, you'll end up with a special prosecutor rightfully charging your ass.

Remember Mr prosecutor this guy's wife thought it was more important to get finger banged by her lover instead of helping her child in crisis. They're trash people.

[–] Eezyville@sh.itjust.works 11 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You've got some crazy wishful thinking if you think this is enough for people to give up their guns.

[–] ItsAFake@lemmus.org 12 points 8 months ago (6 children)

All I want is for people to properly secure their guns at best and not let their hormone filled children gain access to them.

We have shit loads of guns in Australia still, we just don't have it so any billy bob can go down and get a military spec assault rifle to "defend their home".

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[–] Montagge@lemmy.zip 65 points 8 months ago

Good, they were both grossly negligent with a weapon.

[–] jeffw@lemmy.world 31 points 8 months ago (14 children)

I have a couple thoughts on this. First, if the adults are guilty and the courts accepted the argument that they neglected to give the child the help he needed, why is the child serving a life sentence? The article makes it sound like he wanted help and knew he needed it.

Also, I thought I read that the parents had not just left the weapon unsecured, but let him use it.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 48 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Because only the parents knew the worst parts, they bought him a gun, and then left it accessible.

Days later when called to the school over concern that he was showing signs of committing a mass shooting, the parents downplayed it and said their son should remain in school.

They didn't mention the gun, or ask the son about it. They didn't even go home to check.

We have this weird taboo over talking about guns. But when a kid shows these signs "do they have access to guns" should be one of the first questions asked.

[–] Arbiter@lemmy.world 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I mean, it’s a common question in these scenarios.

Nothing physically compels them to tell the truth, though.

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago

This...

This compels them to tell the truth

Because if they lie, and the worst happens, they go to prison

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 35 points 8 months ago (2 children)

The kid needed help, and knew he needed help, but he still chose to go through with it instead of turning himself in.

The drawing on the math paper was a cry for help. He could have just as easily turned himself in, he did not.

It also doesn't help that:

a) Ethan gave his dad the money for the gun, and picked out that specific gun, when he was not old enough to own a gun.

b) Dad made a straw purchase for his son.

c) Mom posted to Instagram calling the gun her sons Christmas present.

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/ethan-crumbley-says-he-gave-james-crumbley-money-to-buy-gun-used-in-oxford-high-school-shooting

[–] jeffw@lemmy.world 14 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I don’t think many kids know about their options though. He basically said “I asked my parents for help and they denied me, so I can’t get help.” To me, that suggests the kid thought he exhausted his options. An uneducated child is a system failure imo, not a child’s criminal act.

I’d also say that most people who are victims of suicide could have turned themselves in. Do we frown on them because they opted for violence?

[–] Jimmyeatsausage@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

The criminal justice system doesn't normally care how awful you are to yourself, its there to try and prevent you being awful to others. I believe you can still be charged with a crime in most of America if you survive a suicide attempt, but it isn't normally pursued because it doesn't really accomplish the things the state cares about...just like the state doesn't typically care about any psychiatric conditions you have unless they make you a danger to others.

I've got a few psychiatric conditions myself, and sometimes they contribute to me making bad choices that negatively impact the people I care about, but that doesn't absolve me of the responsibility I have to own up to my actions and make amends when I fuck up. I can't imagine anything I've dealt with leading me to the conclusion that killing a bunch of children or peers would be acceptable or desirable, but I also have the benefits of being properly medicated and having years of therapy under my belt that had given me a lot of great tools for dealing with my shit...but its still my shit and I'm responsible for it.

And yes, I do tend to frown on suicide. It's a final solution to a usually temporary problem, hurts EVERYONE who loves you, and it destroys your ability to do anything to make the world better.

[–] shasta@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago

Christians do because suicide is a sin

[–] teamevil@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago

Plus Mom chose to get finger banged by her lover instead of skipping work instead of helping her child during an emotional crisis. Even her boss said it would have been fine...she's gross.

[–] PineRune@lemmy.world 25 points 8 months ago

In USA, we have a Punitive Justice system, which is about punishing people for things they have or may have done. This has conditioned us to -want- people to be punished for perceived slights. This is opposed to a Rehabilitive Justice system that some European countries have, which is about not just helping the one who commited the crime to be a better person, but conditioning their citizens to not be the type of people that commit said crimes in the first place. That's all there is to it.

[–] damnthefilibuster@lemmy.world 23 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That guy is a murderer and his father is an accessory to murder. Where’s the doubt?

[–] jeffw@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago (3 children)

The child asked for help and was neglected. Had he not committed a crime, wouldn’t we be calling him a victim?

[–] meco03211@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago (1 children)

He can still be a victim of bad parenting.

[–] jeffw@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Sure, but then we’re talking about him as a victim still. So why is he spending his entire life in prison? Some are cheering the Gypsy Rose Blanchard release, but saying this kid is a murderer who deserves to live behind bars

[–] tryptaminev@feddit.de 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

He is spending his entire life in prison because the US justice system is based around deterrence and retaliation, not prevention and rehabilitation.

In most civilised countries it is impossible for underage offenders to get life. Forinstance in Germany the maximum prison sentence for a minor is ten years. Also youth prisons are focused much more on rehabilitation, social work and education, so the children have a chance at life after their sentence.

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[–] Zirconium@lemmy.world 14 points 8 months ago

Especially since he was 15 at the time of shooting and was literally incapable of getting mental health treatment (if your parents dgaf it's basically impossible)

[–] jaybone@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Are we actually arguing that he’s not guilty because he was neglected?

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[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 9 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Even if he'd been found not competent to stand trial, he'd still be committed involuntarily. I don't know if this makes a difference.

[–] jeffw@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

That ends once you’re stable though.

Edit: also, I don’t mean the kid should be free, but a life sentence for a neglected child seems unfair. The kid knew he needed help and couldn’t get it. Sounds like a victim too.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

The kid killed 4 other kids. At 15 you know that isn't acceptable even if you need help.

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[–] WarmSoda@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago

Because they don't know what to do or who to blame.

[–] acetanilide@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Going by the education I got from L&O, what happens in one trial doesn't really affect a separate trial, even for the same crime

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[–] ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works 25 points 8 months ago (1 children)

These have got to be some of the stupidest people alive, holy shit

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

We know who they voted for too.

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[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 20 points 8 months ago (4 children)

It's pretty wild that you can charge someone as an adult and then charge their parents.

I really don't get the existence of charging someone as an adult regardless though.

[–] Tyfud@lemmy.world 22 points 8 months ago

You're charging two adults. The parent is charged with a separate crime. It's like if you enabled someone to commit a crime. That's a crime. That's what's happening here.

[–] gex@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

“James Crumbley is not on trial for what his son did,” prosecutor Karen McDonald told the jury. “James Crumbley is on trial for what he did and for what he didn’t do.”

They neglected their son's mental health problems and left a gun unlocked at home

[–] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 5 points 8 months ago (4 children)

But age up everyone 20 years in the story so everyone is more obviously an adult in your head. 60-something year old parents neglecting their adult son's mental health is not their fault anymore. If he's an adult, it's his responsibility. Even if the dad bought the son a gun, if the son is an adult, then the son was responsible for locking it up and keeping it safe.

It makes sense to me to charge a parent for getting their kid access to something dangerous and ignoring safety requirements. Like installing a pool without a fence that a kid drowns in, that's clearly morally the parent's fault. But the kid has to be a kid. Buying your adult child a pool which they later drown in is not the parent's fault. Culpability shifts when the child becomes an adult.

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[–] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 7 points 8 months ago (12 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors

A person can technically be a child, and then found to be responsible enough to be treated as an adult. To use a fictional example, Dougie Howser, MD was a 14 year old licensed to dispense drugs.

Same deal with charging someone as an adult. If a 14 year old plans a crime over months they can't claim that they acted impulsively or had no idea of what the crime would mean.

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[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 6 points 8 months ago

?

It just makes them accomplices. Same reason you can charge a getaway driver for a murder in a robbery.

[–] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 15 points 8 months ago

Wow they actually did it

[–] Empricorn@feddit.nl 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Sorry, I'm a little overwhelmed with our self-imposed firearms crises. Which *shooting was this, the one where the parents literally gave an ineligible, depressed teenager a weapon for mass killing?

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago

Good start. Now go after the gun stores.

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