You can see the posts, but any interactions are like you talking into the void.
this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2023
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No Stupid Questions
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Aren't we all...
No. I hear you. I see you. And gosh darn it people like you.
Now shut up while I eat my beans
They’re not mutually defederated. lemmy.world is pulling from beehaw but not vice versa
That explains it thanks. I thought we were mutually defederated (that's what I heard anyway). So essentially, if I were to comment under one of their posts, their users won't see my comment?
From my understanding, in a federated scenario,
- your home instance is making a copy of the remote instance.
- Comments you make are on the local copy your home instance made.
- Your instance tells the remote instance the comments made in your home copy.
- Comments in your home copy are written to the remote instance.
- Instances now have your comment when they copy the remote instance
Defederation breaks the process at step 3.
So your instance is still copying their remote content, and you can still see and comment on it, but those comments are only in your home instance. They can only be seen from people within your home instance looking at the same copy.
Thats how I understand it works, yeah. Beehaw wont pull your comment’s through
But would other instances (including lemmy.world) still see that comment?
I’m pretty sure other lemmy.world users would see each others interactions, not sure how other instances would see it. I would assume others would, if they’re federated with world
I think not, even if other servers are federated with World, they are pulling the comments from Beehaw, so they wouldn’t see the comment. Your instance doesn’t check every other instance for the comments on a thread, just the instance that owns the community.
This is correct.
Comments made locally on an instance that has been defederated from the owning remote instance only exist on that local instance.
I’m not clear on what happens when refederation occurs…
I think that posts made when the instance was defederated will not be there, but posts made after will be. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I think that is true just like the question of whether posts made, federated, then deleted would remain outside the instance. I can imagine the server drain if it had to recursively search through all history everywhere that's connected to do such things. A refederated server, or even a newly online server simply shouldn't spike the network with pulls from weeks, months, years back.
This is why Kbin has the boost button in addition to an upvote. That's being debated on if it's the best way to do it, or if there's a need for a more integrated way to do the same thing. It basically pushes old content back on the federated "stack" to refresh new views. Perhaps Kbin and Lemmy upvotes should do the same?
I think lemmy.world users can see it, but nobody else can.
So, the way federation works is via content mirroring, not tunneling. You're not accessing beehaw.org from lemmy.world, you're reading copies of posts published on beehaw.org. When beehaw defederated, they just... Stopped sending new content. That does nothing to the older content that was already sent.
Your lemmy instance essentially makes a copy of the post, but the copy version can't sync comments/votes back to the main original version
The problem I see here is between lemmy.ca and Beehaw.org, they are federated both way but out of sync completely, no mirroring, no pull, nothing.
It's two way, beehaw.org blocks lemmy.world while lemmy.world links beehaw.org. You can see their posts, but they can't see yours.
And why did beehaw.org defederate?
Beehaw has very strict moderation, like a traditional forum. They want a small, closed community where they can look out but nobody else can come in. (They've even mentioned they would switch to an allowlist if it could be made one-way.)
Lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works had easy sign-ups and Beehaw said the ease of sign-ups were responsible for a lot of trolls and bad actors. So Beehaw defederated from both those instances until they made sign-ups harder.
I think because of different political view. They're not allowing content from other instances that might share different opinions.
It was because lemmy.world was experiencing explosive growth and did not have a good mechanism in place to limit spam and troll accounts. This combined with Lemmy's still infant moderating tools made it difficult for Beehaw to contend with the influx of lemmy.world users who were harassing beehaw users.
A mutual decision was made between both beehaw and lemmy.world to temporarily defederate while the moderation tools are worked on. They fully intend to re-federate once these tools are in place, as both instances have a fairly similar attitude towards harassment and hate speech.
There was no disagreement between the admins of beehaw and lemmy.world
I think it's also important to understand that defederation is a key feature of the fediverse, not something necessarily bad. It allows us to create interconnected communities that fit the needs of different people.
Beehaw and Lemmy.world have similar goals but different strategies, so they defederate so that Beehaw won't have to be subject to moderation issues facing Lemmy.world. That's perfectly fine - Beehaw are not morally obliged to receive content from Lemmy.world. Their users know the content policy of the page, and choose to stay out of their own free will.
Another server might have their own intolerances, even seemingly problematic ones like blasphemy or the letter e. They're free to defederate as they see fit.
This is not breaking the fediverse - it's a major feature of the fediverse by design.
And there's a way around it. Make two accounts so you can see both sides of the "disconnected" instances. The biggest problem with that was how to duplicate your existing account to make it feel more seamless, but already someone has begun a tool to help do most of that for you. One step closer to some type of universal login, at least through Lemmy instances. The caveat is that it now falls on the user to make sure they know where they're posting and what rules that are part of the defederation they should avoid breaking.
No, it's because of a lack of moderating capacity.
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