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4th person pronoun? (startrek.website)

submitted 10 months ago by The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website to c/whitepeopletwitter@sh.itjust.works

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[–] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 110 points 10 months ago (5 children)

First person: Talking about oneself. I, me. Second person: talking about the listener. you, your. Third person: talking about someone who is not the speaker or listener. He/she/it/they Fourth person: Talking about total bullshit.

In this context, "Chat" is second-person plural, used by streamers to address the portion of their audience able to respond in the text chat that always accompanies these things. It does contrast with how a radio personality might address "listeners" because radio listeners don't usually have a method to respond in real time, so it's usually a rhetorical question; a streamer addressing the chat is asking for a response.

[–] Triple_B@lemmy.zip 36 points 10 months ago

Crystal clear, thanks chat.

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[–] lugal@lemmy.ml 101 points 10 months ago (6 children)

There are languages with a 4th person pronoun. The 3rd person is kind of the main character and the 4th someone else. That helps to disambiguate sentences like "The criminal shot the cop and drove away on his (own or the cop's) bike".

Or the "gay fanfiction problem": "He looked at him and lay his hands on his lap". Is it a happy ending or a sad one? That's one theory why gender in pronouns is so resilient: more often than not, the gendered pronoun can disambiguate which person is talked about. It doesn't always work, a 3rd/4rd person distinction is superior.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 23 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (6 children)

You can have an alternate third person pronoun I suppose in order to distinguish two third person individuals, but that doesn't mean there's a fourth person pronoun. The general definition is:

first person - the speaker
second person - the audience, whether present or not present
third person - someone or something other than the audience

So things like "chat" and "breaking the fourth wall" are second person pronouns. There is no fourth person pronoun, because anything other than first and second is covered under third person.

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[–] misophist@lemmy.world 84 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Why isn't that just 2nd person plural, like "y'all"?

[–] prayer@lemmy.world 35 points 10 months ago (6 children)

It speaks to a person that isn't physically present and just an observer. "You" typically addresses someone directly, but can be used to break the 4th wall and talk to observers. "Chat" is exclusively for breaking the 4th wall.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 52 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Nah, "chat" is talking to a specific, present group of people, and is used in lieu of writing a text chat. It's not like a film actor speaking to the audience, who has no way of responding. Even so, any terms used in breaking the fourth wall would still be second person, ability to respond and presence aren't a requirement here (e.g. you'd use "you" in letters, and the reader is absolutely not present).

[–] AlfredEinstein@lemmy.world 25 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Chat, I've found more youthspeak that I can use incorrectly and be cringe.

Skibidi!

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[–] User_4272894@lemmy.world 18 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You are wrong on both counts.

I just addressed "you", even though you're not physically present, so clearly that's not a requirement of second person usage, not to mention that presumably this child saying "chat" is being heard by people physically nearby in this example.

In order to break the fourth wall, the speaker must be part of the media. In the instance of streamers talking to their fans, it's clearly meant to be an interactive experience between streamer and host, consuming the same media (albeit in different ways). They're asking a question and getting a response which informs their actions.

Fundamentally, it's no different than when my wife asks "did that wizard just cast fireball?" while she sits on the couch watching me playing Skyrim.

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[–] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 75 points 10 months ago (4 children)

Is it really that different than saying "Audience"? Or radio shows referring to "listeners"? Etc.

[–] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 40 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Or "y'all"

Saying "chat" to address a group or room full of people isn't different at all from addressing them as "y'all"

[–] hglman@lemmy.ml 17 points 10 months ago (1 children)

All y'all more specifically

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[–] The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website 32 points 10 months ago (7 children)

Seems like the same thing to me. I think the person saying it's the first of its kind is wrong, but it would still be equally bizarre if people were addressing their "listeners" in normal conversation.

[–] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 16 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Lemmings, do you agree? ;)

[–] The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Be sure to smash that blue arrow, and follow on Kbin.

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[–] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 25 points 10 months ago

Or on a serial killer podcast, run by 35yo ladies, "murder muffins"

[–] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 15 points 10 months ago

Ladies and Gentlemen

Friends

Guys

[To the] Saints in Ephesus

Gentlemen of the jury

Kids!

Class

Respected Members of the Lemeritus Comment Section Elle

[the] House

[–] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 70 points 10 months ago (1 children)

it's definitely 2nd person collective in its original usage and outside of its original usage it's not a pronoun because it doesn't replace a noun.

[–] milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 14 points 10 months ago

I don't think it's a pronoun at all. It's a collective noun, and a term of address.

"Ladies and Gentlemen" is also not a pronoun.

[–] superduperenigma@lemmy.world 63 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

First person = someone describing their own point of view (ex: I, me)

Second person = someone being addressed (ex: you, y'all)

Third person = someone talking about someone else (ex: they, them)

Fourth person = the point of view of a collective group (ex: we, us)

[–] Rolando@lemmy.world 101 points 10 months ago (4 children)

I can't tell if you're making a joke or not, but when I learned it "we" was first person plural. Likewise "y'all" was second person plural, etc.

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[–] misterundercoat@lemmy.world 28 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Bird Person = friend of Rick Sanchez and generally good guy who doesn't appreciate dick moves

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 24 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Fourth person

Doesn't exist. We/us is first person plural. Some languages have a little complexity here (e.g. Tagalog has "kami" which means "we without you" and "tayo" which means "we with you," but they're both still first person plurals).

first person - speaker
second person - audience excluding speaker
third person - everything else

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[–] CryptidBestiary@lemmy.world 60 points 10 months ago (4 children)

It's just a pronoun to address the Collective

[–] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 16 points 10 months ago

Chat are idiots and can't be trusted

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Chat will be assimilated. Resischat is futile.

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[–] hansl@lemmy.world 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (6 children)

But the collective that excludes yourself. It’s like a “we without me”, which is also not the plural you.

[–] Inucune@lemmy.world 23 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Y'all

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[–] CarlsIII@kbin.social 43 points 10 months ago

It’s not even a pronoun in this context, it’s just a noun.

[–] benignintervention@lemmy.world 30 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Is this the uncanny valley of dril tweets? I have no idea what this means

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[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 30 points 10 months ago (1 children)

My pronouns are Chat/Commentor

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[–] FIST_FILLET@lemmy.ml 28 points 10 months ago (1 children)

me when i've taken half a class of english: bro chat is 4th person 🤓

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[–] charonn0@startrek.website 16 points 10 months ago (5 children)

"Everyone"?

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