politics

I've even seen some people try claiming that the attack didn't happen and Israel must have fabricated it. My first thought was, "Really? We're going to 'Alex Jones/Sandy Hook' this?"

You can both want Palestinians to be treated fairly and be against Israeli citizens (among others) being slaughtered. Saying "Hamas was wrong to do this" doesn't mean you're saying "Israel is blameless in this situation."

Sadly, way too many people need there to be a Good Guy Who Never Does Wrong and a Bad Guy Who Never Does Right.

People need to understand that when you do something like that, it waters down both sides of the equation. You can call something "antisemitic" to get people to think that action is evil without looking too closely because they want to distance themselves as much as possible from the evil label. But it also can make people lose the association between "antisemitic" and "evil" because they agree with whatever is being called "antisemitic" and think "if this is antisemitism, it must not be that bad".

And then there's the ones who think "if you're going to call me evil, then I might as well just be evil".

I remember that sinking feeling and realizing that our culture was going to use 9/11 as an excuse to act really terrible. I’m from the western US and had no cultural or personal ties with anyone east of the Mississippi, so I had less of an emotional connection to the actual terrible events. Nothing has been quite the same since in our culture.

Sadly, yeah. I've seen a few on Lemmy, which disappoints me. I mean, it's not that hard:

• Don't support targeting civilians and cutting people's heads off.
• Don't support illegal settlements and systematic oppression.

Why is that difficult? Why is it so goddamn difficult to say both are wrong in different ways? Supporting Israel's right to exist free from terrorism against innocent civilians is not identical to supporting illegal expansion and the oppression of the Palestinian people. And supporting Palestine's right to exist free from tyranny and encroachment is not identical to supporting Hamas, which is a horrendous terrorist organization that is just as awful to the Palestinians as they clearly are to civilian Israelis.

Just look further down in this thread. You can see one person justifying Hamas and saying "slave rebellions require the wanton killing of their masters" and another justifying Israel's actions by conflating all of Palestine with Hamas.

It's the rare case where there are actually a nontrivial group of people taking what would be otherwise a strawman position. And that makes it incredibly difficult for us to discuss this like adults. This conflict is the perfect storm of centuries of geopolitics, anti semitism, anti Muslim sentiment, and nationalism.

The only good people here are the innocent civilians, and they're the ones being brutally murdered and bombed and taken hostage.

I think Israel has been complacent, because it's been relatively easy for them to live with Iron Dome and use Gaza as an open-air prison. The scale and effectiveness of this attack is unprecedented even if an attack is expected in general, which makes Israel's failure to stop this and Hamas' success even more surprising.

It's really good to see Burgis (and Jacobin) publish something level-headed about the situation from the left, as well as seeing some Marxist pages I follow make the same distinction. Left pages (I've only seen a few personally) posting memes about revolutionary violence to sort of under-handedly voice support for Hamas I find pretty abhorrent, considering how anti-Communist Hamas is, not to mention would gladly start their own final solution if given the chance.

I don't think anyone should feel good about supporting any group but civilians in this conflict. That means Israel needs to stop treating Palestinians as "animals," which is what their Defense Minister recently openly referred to them as. That also means siding with Palestinian civilians but not the anti-semitic, fascist, Hamas. Many Israeli politicians probably have more in common with Hamas than not in their ideaology. The good people in this fight are the ones not fighting.

The unfortunate thing is how Israel's western allies are basically enabling their complete blockade of Gaza from here on out. 2 million people will have no power, food, water, or medical supplies coming in, while being bombed with nowhere else to go, with the full support of it's allies.

One of the problems is that there's a constant cycle of violence. Palestinians, feeling oppressed by Israel, launch some sort of attack (rockets, firing on civilians, bombs, etc). Innocent people are killed and Israelis react in fear and anger. This pushes right wing Israeli politicians into power which results in bloody responses directed at the Palestinians. Repeat again and again with each side's attack being justified by the other side's latest action.

(And, note, I'm not saying "the Palestinians started this" above. I just need SOMEWHERE to start the illustration and recounting the full 100 or so year history of this conflict would be way too long.)

Then, add to the mix, foreign interference. On the Palestinian side is Iran who doesn't want human rights for Palestinians. No, they just want Israel attacked and Jews killed. So they'll push for attacks like the recent one even if it will hurt, rather than help, the Palestinian cause.

On the Israeli side are evangelical Christians from the US. They think Jesus will come back if Israel, run by Jews, is attacked. They've got the "run by Jews" part and peace would stop an attack that would bring Jesus back. They do things like fund the settlers who take over Palestinian land.

I don't pretend to know the solution. If I did, I'd be a world class diplomat - something I definitely am not. However, I can both understand why each side does what it does while condemning actions that I think cross the line. The whole thing is a twisted mess and anyone who thinks one side is all good and the other side is all bad is vastly oversimplifying the situation.

even if hamas didn't exist there would be a similar organization doing something similar. Turning Gaza into a giant prison means a gang will pop up to enforce rules and they will build up new angry recruits every time israel kills a protestor, day by day, week by week.

This works both ways also. Israelis feel like they are constantly under threat of attack from rockets, bombs, and now raids that kill civilians. This increases support for hard line, right wing politicians who will act swiftly and harshly. Temporary anger over the attack (which, to be clear, is justified), can result in actions that cross the line.

It's a vicious cycle. Israelis feel attacked and so support right wing politicians who promise them safety. Then the Palestinians are attacked and turn to terrorist groups like Hamas to strike back. Repeat again and again and again. Neither side is willing to back down because they have to get revenge for the latest attack even though this revenge will cause another attack.