this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023

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249

Hamas official says group is open to discussions over truce with Israel (www.reuters.com)

submitted 1 year ago by Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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[–] rivermonster@sh.itjust.works 136 points 1 year ago (9 children)

There's no way the psychotic hardliners fascists in the Israeli government are going to pass up the "end game" that Hamas handed them. By destroying the sense of moral high ground worldwide, they've doomed themselves. They're going to clear-cut gaza.

I am not saying either governments has the high ground. But I am commenting that Hamas fucked themselves! They've done away with the sympathy and protections that come with victimhood as they transitioned to embracing mass war crimes and crimes against humanity.

I'm still hoping the West Bank can escape the bulk of future Israeli war crimes and retribution (as much as possible), but I'm not holding my breath. I'd be shocked if Gaza was anything but an uninhabited wasteland after this. And again, I'm not endorsing that, just being realistic.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 36 points 1 year ago (4 children)

If they wipe out Gaza that's 2.2million people to be "clear cut". That's not a good look no matter how much good PR a side has

[–] Fraylor@lemm.ee 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly the question is would anybody care enough to do something about it? I see headlines everyday finger wagging at bigwigs all across the world but nothing actually gets done to them.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 28 points 1 year ago

If history is the guide, no one will intervene in the depopulation of a well armed country until the antagonist country makes international war.

[–] rivermonster@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Agreed, and I didn't mean to imply they will kill them all. But some sort of mass deportation even if done over months, seems entirely possible.

What doesn't seem plausible to me is them leaving Gaza even remotely habitable.

I think just turning off water and power is a crime. I don't care for either government in this conflict either. I feel awful for any innocent civilian stuck in this mess.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There are 6 million people in Israel, of that about 2 million is Israel Palestinian.

There are a about 6 million people in Palestinian.

If Israel won't let Palestine be a independent country, then the 4 million Isrealies and the 8 million Palestinians need to integrate and come to some South African truth and reconciliation level of cultural assimilation.

Not letting people be independent but making them second class citizens will never see a end to violence.

[–] rivermonster@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think a truth and reconciliation would be amazing. But I'm a realist, just bc I want to believe that could happen doesn't mean I can pretend there's any chance it will.

FWIW I would love for you to be right and me to be wrong. I just lack any hope.

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[–] avater@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But Palestine and especially the Hamas are also denying Israel their right to be an independent country. The Hamas is also denying Jews in general their existence and wants to eradicate them, how does this work in your equation?

The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the real one and worth solving, but the Hamas is nothing more than a terror organization.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I agree. Hamas is an intractable bad actor. To get reconciliation between the populations, we need to have both populations engaged in a hopeful future, so that most of the population does not support religious extremists violent bad actors. We have to make Hamas the worst option for the general population, not the best.

Israel and Palestine both exist on the same land. There's no solution that's going to make everybody happy. In an ideal world they'd both have their independent territory split, and let bygones be bygones. But that's not the world we live in.

If Palestine can't have its own land, then I see the only tenable solution is integration between the populations. You can't have an effectively imprisoned population and expect stability.

Honestly, I blame the British. Their long history of drawing lines on maps, the local people be damned, has been the source of lots of conflict.

Other potential options I see: a UN military force maintaining a separation between the populations, and a road to independence.

A secular government, from all religions, being the administrative head of the entire territory, and then religious governments for subregions to represent their direct populations. Something like the state model in the United States.

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[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

They've been murdering Palestinians for decades already. And nobody gave a shit, why would they start now?

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[–] red@sopuli.xyz 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What Hamas did requires a response from Israel, and no amount of "truce now, k?" will be work. It's sad, but the only course for Israel is to hit back, and hard. Anything less would be bending over and showing Hamas can do this again.

In other words, you can't stab a person, and then go "whoa stahp" when the bleeding guy pulls a bigger gun on you.

Bystanderd will be hurt, but I hope it will be over quick and afterwards there can be a path towards something better.

Before you engage with what I said, be sure to read up on https://lemmy.world/comment/4385358

I wish Hamas could be eradicated, it would be the single best step for Palestine, and not far behind, Israel and the rest of the world.

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[–] PugJesus@kbin.social 71 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A senior Hamas official said the group is open to discussions over a possible truce with Israel, having "achieved its targets."

Yep, Hamas managed to entrench both sides in their fucking atrocity competition, so Hamas and the Israeli right-wing can both hang onto power by the fear and hatred stirred in their populations. Great. Same time again next year?

Fucking scumsuckers.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 28 points 1 year ago

After what happened, I don't think Israel is going to allow Hamas to hang on to power. They are not going to allow Gaza to ever again be in a position to attack Israeli citizens, and that's going to come at the cost of a lot of innocent Palestinians.

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[–] avater@lemmy.world 65 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (30 children)

Just as a little reality check for all Hamas "fans" (Hamas not Palestine!!) out here which are actually comparing them to Israel or openly defending them. The Hamas is founded on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which are a fairytale full of antisemitism and proven, false statements about Jews and how they are responsible for every bad thing that happens during the centuries and their diabolical plot for world domination (of course one of the favorite lecture of the Nazis)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

Those idiots are really believing this fairytale and they use it to justify the murder of innocent people and Jews in general. So the next time you step in in defense of the Hamas or when you compare them to Israel, keep in mind that they are doing this because they believe in some antisemitic fairytale written by a crazy Russian back in the old days...they are basically Scientology only more degenerated and more violent.

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[–] osarusan@kbin.social 36 points 1 year ago

Real Putin energy here.

[+] Furball@sh.itjust.works 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

They've been living under an Israeli siege for over a decade and had a mature enough intelligence apparatus to plan a highly coordinated assault while living in a surveillance state.. If you don't think this wasn't a calculated informed attack you've got your head up your ass.

I'm not condoning indiscriminate killing and rape of civilians and taking hostages, I also don't condone the inhumane siege of Gaza that has been happening for decades. 50% of Gaza is under 18. That's not because they're popping out kids, its because you just don't survive that long in that kind of environment, those are also deaths. Not graphic ones that make headlines, but lives were still lost. Its incredibly hypocritical to assume Israel's shit don't stink in this situation either.

I'm also queasy when I read the coverage of the recent attacks by Hamas, I also haven't been living in a police state. Not saying this is the most effective way that they can achieve their objectives, but I can understand how someone growing up seeing violence, sickness and malnutrition for completely preventable reasons dehumanizes the people they see as being the cause of their situation and join or support an organization like Hamas.

[–] Dreamer@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Also, when Palestinians resist against Israel, I'm not sure many people are informed about the differences between what Israel's actions are and the narrative it gives out. An example would be found in this Haaretz article covering how Israel systematically hides evidence of Arab expulsion.

[–] Furball@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I do think that Israel should stop its colonization of the West Bank, cease the blockade, and work towards a two state solution. But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.

[–] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

But my sympathy is with the Palestinian people. I have absolutely no sympathy for hamas after what they have done and they deserve what will happen next.

The Israeli government no longer seems to care about the difference between the two.

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[–] tory@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (11 children)

We took hostages so now you should negotiate rather than genocide the entire Gaza strip.

Yeah, good luck with that.

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[–] Devious_Thoughts@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

LMAO come on, guess they didn't expect the IDF to fight back 🤷🏽

[–] Wahots@pawb.social 22 points 1 year ago

Taking a shit in the public water supply, getting roughed up as people demand to know why you just shat in the only watersource, and then you tell them to chill and that you "got your point across" lmao.

[–] hoshikarakitaridia@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Yeah sorry Hamas, no takesy backsies when you just murdered a bunch of civilians at a peace festival.

It's like your brother just stole your favourite toy and then he's like "ok now we can have a truce".

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[–] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee 18 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Hamas fucked around, is finding out, and want to talk "truce?" What does a truce with a bunch of genocidal terrorists look like?

[–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Not carpet bombing the Gaza strip, where 2 and a half million palestinians live I'd imagine.

[–] Cleverdawny@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If Israel was carpet bombing the Gaza Strip, we wouldn't see hundreds dead. We would see hundreds of thousands dead.

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[–] QHC@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Good question, should ask Israel the same thing.

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[–] mlg@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

I think he mean in the sense of hostage negotiations.

Practically speaking he's right, Hamas got what they wanted by doing a day of raids for some bullet spray kills, a few IDF outposts, and taking hostages for negotiating power.

Whether or not Israel will actually decide to negotiate for anything is another thing lol.

[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're way past the line.

[–] CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Lol no way; Hamas needs to be wiped out completely. They can never, ever, be trusted and will just do this shit again in the future.

[–] ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 1 year ago (13 children)

But Israel is allowed to murder men, women and children and steal homes, land for decades right?

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Yeah, what Hamas did is entirely wrong but don’t forget that Israel been oppressing Palestinians for decades.

[–] CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Hypocrisy at its finest.

Nope. I don't support Israel doing that either. However, Hamas will never tolerate peace. They will never allow a 2-state compromise; they want Israel completely gone. And Israel is allowed to defend it's borders. There is no happy ending here for anyone.

[–] Whattrees@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The right-wing party in Israel (the party currently in control even after losing multiple elections) will also never support peaceful co-existence. They will never allow a real two state solution where the other state has control over its borders, air, water, import rights, etc. They want Palestine completely gone, and in fact Bibi was just at the UN arguing that Israel already has complete control and ownership over the Palestinian territories. Palestine is allowed to defend against the longest running occupation in history. There is no happy ending here as long as the Israeli boot is on the Palestinian neck.

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[–] LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I mean yeah it'd be great if you could just do that. But how would you? And more importantly, how is the state of Israel proposing to get rid of Hamas? What actions are they taking right now with that aim? They're bombing palestinians. Just random indiscriminate bombing. How exactly would that eliminate Hamas? Their plan is just to kill as many palestinians as they can, Netanyahu has said himself he plans to "turn Gaza into a desert island" and his defense minister has said "our enemies are human animals". It's plain as day what they plan to do.

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