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Animals and Pets

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Indoor/Outdoor Cats (beehaw.org)

submitted 1 month ago by theangriestbird@beehaw.org to c/animals@beehaw.org

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[alt text: an illustration of a person with a head-empty expression on their face, who is saying, "Not letting your cat outside is CRUEL!" Around the person are various gruesome scenes of different cats in distress. From the top and going clockwise, the scenes include: a cat being carried away by a hawk; a cat that is on fire; a dead cat in the road that has been run over by a car; several dead kittens; a cat that is missing an eye and various patches of fur; a cat that is feasting on a songbird; and a cat that is being carried away by a coyote. The person appears to be completely oblivious to these scenes of distress.]

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[–] luciole@beehaw.org 20 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This neither funny nor informative. You're just antagonizing for the sake of it.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

i care a lot about the health and happiness of cats AND about the health of my local wildlife. Clearly some folks don't understand that letting their cats roam outside is bad for the cat and for the local native wildlife, so I would argue that this post is plenty informative.

Edit: generally, I would say this follows the format of other political cartoons - using an illustration to make an argument succinctly.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

succinctly

It's not a very clever cartoon, you're just painting the one you don't agree with as a literal shithead.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)

while pointing out the contradiction in the statement, with the various scenes surrounding the shithead.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I agree with the point of the cartoon, but I also agree it is not a good cartoon. There are bits of ableism and in general it just seems like it wants to be shocking to get a reaction. It is a good topic to discuss, but there are better ways to go about it.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 2 points 1 month ago

sure, that is fair. it's not my favorite cartoon ever, i will admit. but it makes a point that i don't think needs a lot of subtlety.

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[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 19 points 1 month ago

This is a good overview for folks that think cats should be outside. This particular quote stands out:

Although originally bred from their wild counterparts, domestic cats (which include feral felines and pets) are not native to any ecosystem, making them an invasive species everywhere they exist

https://www.popsci.com/environment/outdoor-cats-spread-diseases/

[–] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 18 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I've never understood how this is so controversial

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 13 points 1 month ago

People's parents taught them that cats need to be allowed to roam outside to be healthy and happy. Many people don't have the critical thinking skills to change the views that their parents gave them.

[–] echo@lemmings.world 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Quick! Give us the stupidist fucking take on this that you possibly can!

Today we learned that outdoor birds and cats are extinct because cats killed all the birds and wolves/birds killed all the cats.

[–] jerkface@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Several years ago, we (ie the human scientific community) learned that cats are the leading cause of death of ALL BIRDS AND MAMMALS IN NORTH AMERICA.

[–] echo@lemmings.world 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Perhaps all cats collectively, but not well-fed, cared-for house cats in particular. I've always had cats and they only very rarely catch a bird. It does the cause a disservice to be intellectually dishonest.

[–] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 2 points 1 month ago

Agreed. The "feral" (shed cats) that we take care of (and fixed)... They've killed all of maybe 12 animals in the past 8 years that we know of (maybe 10x that for shit they've killed that we didn't know about). The correct answer is that number would be thousands of critters... but isn't because we give them cat food that's available to them at will. It also stops them from roaming outside of the "local" area.

The large population of cats together can do a bunch of damage. Feral cats likely do a hell of a lot damage. But claiming that letting a single cat be outside is the end of the world for the local critters is crazy.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 16 points 1 month ago (1 children)

cats are an invasive species. this is a proven fact, supported by ecologists. and if you love your cat, you won't let them outside to get run over by a car. there are million other ways to provide a cat with similar enrichment.

[–] echo@lemmings.world 8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Humans are an invasive species... maybe we shouldn't be allowed outside?

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I as a human can make the conscious choice to live in harmony with the living beings around me. Cats are predators that act on instinct most of the time. It isn't their fault that they hunt delicate species to extinction just for fun - they literally cannot help it. Which is why we, the humans with big brains and reason, need to help them more harmoniously with their environment. Especially given that we are the bastards that brought them all over the world in the first place.

[–] echo@lemmings.world 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

My cats very rarely range far from my property and far more rarely have caught a bird. They fixed and well-fed. Not all cats are equally 'bad'.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 8 points 1 month ago

#notallcats

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[–] Oka@sopuli.xyz 10 points 1 month ago (2 children)

My first cat was eaten by a mountain lion. That was not on my Bingo card of all the things that I thought he could die from.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 13 points 1 month ago

you'd be surprised how many predators are living within walking distance of your home, even in metro areas! Even in places where they are less, cats still have to watch out for the apex predator: Honda Civics

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 4 points 1 month ago

There's always a bigger cat... I guess?

[–] LallyLuckFarm@beehaw.org 9 points 1 month ago

This has gone like other "cats are not native to everywhere and are massively impactful to the areas in which they are introduced" threads has gone, and while it has been more civil than the last, is going a bit sideways.

Depriving cats of enjoyment and engagement is not nice, that's why we as owners can play with them using toys designed to satisfy their predatorial urges. Leaving cats unsupervised outside is also not nice to local bird populations, or those unsupervised cats who suffer unspeakable outcomes.

[–] Faydaikin@beehaw.org 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Not letting your cat outside is cruel. Not considering the environment it'll be in is also cruel.

Perhaps people should just be more mindful when it comes to their choice of pets and if they should even have one.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 15 points 1 month ago (5 children)

how is it cruel? There are many, many, many ways to provide enrichment for a cat without letting them outside to get run over by a car. I'm all for catios and taking cats for a walk on a leash or in some sort of covered carrier, as a form of enrichment. But I don't think the absence of those activities is inherently cruel.

[–] BorgDrone@lemmy.one 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

There are many, many, many ways to provide enrichment for a cat without letting them outside

Sure, I could buy some live mice for her to ‘play’ with, but I don’t want that mess inside my house.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

your cat does not need to hunt live animals to be happy and healthy. That's what cat toys are for. You should be playing with your cat at least 20 minutes a day, if not more. I get that some cats get lazy and don't want to play for 20 minutes, and I got no judgment for stopping early if your cat is super uninterested. But you gotta at least try every day. That's just part of responsible cat parenting.

To @Faydaikin@beehaw.org's point, I think that if you can't do that, you shouldn't adopt a cat.

[–] BorgDrone@lemmy.one 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

your cat does not need to hunt live animals to be happy and healthy.

It’s a predator, of course it needs to hunt to be happy.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 12 points 1 month ago (1 children)

yep. which is why you should play with your cat with toys, which won't give them disgusting diseases like wild animals will.

[–] BorgDrone@lemmy.one 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Nah. She’s this fluffy little murder machine. She needs to sow death and destruction on the local mouse population.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

i guess, if you enjoy being a menace to your local ecology. Then go off, king.

[–] BorgDrone@lemmy.one 3 points 1 month ago (2 children)

a menace to your local ecology.

That’s a funny way of saying ‘pest control’.

[–] erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Trolling, intentionally obtuse, or just dumb? Because as we all know, cats never kill anything but pests. Native animals would never become endangered because of domesticated cats. At least put a bell on them or something so they don't kill the wildlife.

[–] BorgDrone@lemmy.one 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

That depends entirely on where you live. Cats are pretty much native animals here in Europe.

At least put a bell on them or something so they don't kill the wildlife.

Tell me you’ve never owned a cat without telling me you’ve never owned a cat.

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[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

if you consider endangered songbirds to be pests, then sure i guess.

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[–] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

i guess, if you enjoy being a menace to your local ecology. Then go off, king.

The guy mentions "destruction of the local mouse population" and this is your answer? So you think those mice are native? They'd exist if humans weren't here?

They are the same issue as cats... They're only here and only thriving because we accidentally give them too much safety/places to live/food. They would also be invasive.

[–] theangriestbird@beehaw.org 3 points 1 month ago

you're fooling yourself if you think that cat is only catching mice. if you let your cat roam outdoors, put a camera on them and marvel at all the creatures they kill while they are "exploring"

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[–] Faydaikin@beehaw.org 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

It is. They need to be outside as much as you do.

Nobody thrives in an exclusively indoor environment. They go crazy. Sterilization can help a bit, but they still need to go out sniffing stuff and at least play at hunting daily.

There's a reason even prisons have courtyards and outside activities. It's downright dangerous for everyone if they didn't.

[–] desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I also rarely go outside, I am a perfectly normal human.

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[–] isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Walk harness. Cats should be taken on walks outside, on a harness, like dogs are.

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[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Guess where all them cats would be if humans didn't exist.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

In their native habitat, not in North America. Probably, at least. Who knows, there wouldn't be anyone around to know

[–] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

In their native habitat, not in North America

So you think that mountain lions, cougars, pumas, etc... never existed in the Americas? You think that there are NO native cat populations here at all? Shit man... The bob cat I found under my trailer in my back yard must have been a figment of my imagination.

While "domestic" cats are invasive... Cats exist literally in EVERY STATE I'VE EVER LIVED IN. (New York, AZ, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, North Carolina, and Virginia.) And I've SEEN native cats in literally EVERY one of those states.

The actual problem here isn't the "native-ness" of "domestic" cats... but that their population is inflated because we cater to them and create what amount to an unlimited food supply for them. "domestic" cats are barely domesticated.

Edit: And because I know it's going to happen. No... I don't have "indoor" cats. I do feed the "shed cats" (feral-ish). Which should actually stop them from eating wildlife... or at least stop it significantly. They are friendly with us... Not with much of anyone else. I actually don't really agree with having animals in the house at all... I just find the premise that cats wouldn't exist here as quite a silly concept.

Edit2: and the ones we take "care" of are fixed.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Where did I say that? Felis catus aka the domestic cat would not be in North America. In fact, as I learned when doing research into their native habitat, domestic cats only exist because of artificial selection, so would not be anywhere. In regards to native species in North America, domestic cats hunt different species of animals compared to the native counterparts. They also tend to do so in smaller ranges, with higher numbers in smaller areas. For instance, bobcats tend to have ranges from about 3-8 square miles, with variations based on age, sex, and season. They hunt rabbits (and other rodents) and medium to large birds. Domestic cats hunt small rodents and birds, but live in much smaller areas with much higher numbers packed into that small area.

I do agree that humans are the problem. Letting cats outside, not getting them fixed, essentially creating feral cat colonies is the problem. I don't think anyone saying you should not let your cats outside is saying anything besides that.

[–] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Where did I say that? Felis catus aka the domestic cat would not be in North America.

Domestic cats are BARELY different from Bobcats... which are indeed native. Correct without humans cats as we specifically know them wouldn't exist. But other cats do exist. They are native.

Same can be said for mice though.... mice as they exist in large cities wouldn't exist as they are now without human interaction. Are they now invasive and non-native? We don't tend to think of it that way. But it's just as accurate as cats are here...

They hunt rabbits (and other rodents) and medium to large birds. Domestic cats hunt small rodents and birds, but live in much smaller areas with much higher numbers packed into that small area.

This is simply a size thing... Juvenile Bobcats act more or less exactly like domestic cats in this respect.

I don’t think anyone saying you should not let your cats outside is saying anything besides that.

And yet... OP is in the thread judging everyone for ANY cat being outside Not talking about "feral" at all and specifically goes out of their way to include ALL domestic cats period. So yes... there are people out there claiming much more than that.

Edit: Keep in mind the thread's title is "Indoor/Outdoor Cats"... So definitionally NOT the feral cats you're talking about.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Again, I never said other cats would not exist. The comic is about domestic cats, not native cats.

Bobcats are wildly different from domestic cats. For instance, they don't decimate local bird populations and they are generally solitary creatures. Domestic cats tend to live in colonies and do in fact decimate bird populations. In regards to juvenile bobcats, their range increases and they move to their own, mostly solitary, range as they get older. Domestic cats don't grow out of living in a feral colony. Bobcats breed less frequently (usually once, but sometimes twice a year) whereas domestic cats tend to have more than one litter a year (1.4 on average), so their numbers go up a lot faster. Adult bobcats are also 2-3 times as big as adult domestic cats.

And yet… OP is in the thread judging everyone for ANY cat being outside Not talking about “feral” at all and specifically goes out of their way to include ALL domestic cats period.

The comic itself is about pets, not feral cats, so it makes sense that OP would be focusing on that. Feral cats are the biggest problem in the discussion about killing native wildlife (birds in particular). The thing is, you don't get feral cats without people letting their unfixed house cats roam free. This is also leaving out the fact the that letting a house cat roam free is bad for the cat itself (shorter lifespans and more diseases/parasites), which is, at least as I have been reading it, is where OP is coming from.

[–] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Adult bobcats are also 2-3 times as big as adult domestic cats.

Bobcats generally weigh between 15 and 30 pounds. Males are larger than the females. Their body length is 20 to 50 inches.
Source: https://www.desertmuseum.org/kids/oz/long-fact-sheets/Bob-cat.php?print=y

Most domestic cats should weigh about 10 pounds, though that can vary by breed and frame. A Siamese cat may weigh as few as 5 pounds, while a Maine Coon can be 25 pounds and healthy.
Source: https://www.webmd.com/pets/cats/features/healthy-weight-for-your-cat

So depending on the cat breed... virtually no difference at all. The larger of the 2 cats that we feed (shed cat, remember "feral")... is 20-22 pounds (the smaller brother is 16-17 lbs). He is just as heavy as an average bobcat. Though admittedly less "stocky". But my point is that they're similar, "virtually the same" or "barely different". I never claimed 1:1. But if they're 99% the same... then it's the same. Marginally larger is not sufficient argument that they're different. Bob cats are not like mountain lions. They're not "huge".

Domestic cats tend to live in colonies and do in fact decimate bird populations.

Check the graph of your own source...https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380/figures/2 It shows that normal owned domestic cats are not the issue, which is exactly what the comic is pointing "fun" at. The "owner" that feeds the cat and lets them outside from time to time are nowhere near the problem. You're context switching between "Feral" and owned and claiming that everything is bad when it's only one category or the other. This is literal bad faith argument.

Further... No, domestic cats don't "tend" to live in colonies. They only do so only due to food issues and will arguably NEVER create social group unless it's required.

Feral cats (cats which live without help from man) can and will form small colonies based around available food sources. This does not inevitably happen [...] However, they develop neither a social survival strategy nor a pack mentality and they continue to be solitary hunters. Thus cats are not ‘pack’ animals but have the ability to adapt to form social groups.
source: https://icatcare.org/advice/the-social-structure-of-cat-life/

Cats are wildly solitary... even domestic ones (even the ones that form prides!). There's a reason why it's a pain in the ass to get them to get along when you get a new kitten in the house. And even then they never really get along... More accurately just tolerating each other. The only cats I've ever seen truly "get along" are siblings from the same litter... And even then it looks more like a "we tolerate each other a lot" more than proactively working together as a pack/colony.

Bobcats breed less frequently (usually once, but sometimes twice a year) whereas domestic cats tend to have more than one litter a year (1.4 on average)

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news... But 1.4 is between 1 and sometimes 2 a year. No idea where you're getting this stat from, but the way you present it... you've basically presented the same exact number twice, in two different ways and claimed that it's different. If "1 to sometimes 2 times" actually means 1.2 as an average... 1.2 and 1.4 isn't that far apart.

The thing is, you don’t get feral cats without people letting their unfixed house cats roam free.

Cool. Then this comic doesn't apply to a very large subset of owners who do the right thing and virtually all cats that make it to any human system at all. Now you can fuck off with pushing it onto everyone which is what OP is doing in half of their posts in this thread. Especially since non-altered cats tend to do shit like spray. If that cat is EVER indoors, they're probably fixed. That makes the comic fucking stupid. It makes the OP a jackass for targeting a group of people who aren't the problem. And makes you an accomplice for shilling it as well by conflating the two groups of problem as if they're the same. Domestic cats that are indoor pets are not the problem... even when they go outside. It's the feral cats... which has nothing to do with the guy portrayed in the comic.

[–] Vodulas@beehaw.org 4 points 1 month ago

So depending on the cat breed… virtually no difference at all. The larger of the 2 cats that we feed (shed cat, remember “feral”)… is 20-22 pounds (the smaller brother is 16-17 lbs). He is just as heavy as an average bobcat. Though admittedly less “stocky”. But my point is that they’re similar, “virtually the same” or “barely different”. I never claimed 1:1. But if they’re 99% the same… then it’s the same. Marginally larger is not sufficient argument that they’re different. Bob cats are not like mountain lions. They’re not “huge”.

Just because some domestic cats can get as big as some bobcats does not make that the norm. Also, size is not the only differentiator, which is why I brought up breeding, food source, and habitat.

Check the graph of your own source…https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380/figures/2 It shows that normal owned domestic cats are not the issue, which is exactly what the comic is pointing “fun” at. The “owner” that feeds the cat and lets them outside from time to time are nowhere near the problem. You’re context switching between “Feral” and owned and claiming that everything is bad when it’s only one category or the other. This is literal bad faith argument.

Domestic cats and feral cats are the same species, so I apologize for not making that distinction in the one sentence. It is an easy mistake to make, and you did the same thing in your next paragraph:

Further… No, domestic cats don’t “tend” to live in colonies. They only do so only due to food issues and will arguably NEVER create social group unless it’s required.

And went on to describe feral cats. That being said, I literally said feral cats were the problem. From my previous comment:

The comic itself is about pets, not feral cats, so it makes sense that OP would be focusing on that. Feral cats are the biggest problem in the discussion about killing native wildlife (birds in particular).

Talking about bad faith, the part you left out in the description of feral cats is:

This does not inevitably happen, and some will live singly, **but it is not uncommon for small groups of co-operating females and kittens (matrilinear colonies) to develop. **

That [...] did a lot of heavy lifting in your version...

actually means 1.2 as an average… 1.2 and 1.4 isn’t that far apart.

That is a 15% difference, which in breeding numbers is huge. And this is talking about number of litters, so doesn't even get down to total number of kittens born (although litter size is pretty similar). Also of note, bobcats don't generally start breeding until their second year. Domestic cats start at 6 months of age, which is why we fix cats as soon as possible.

Then this comic doesn’t apply to a very large subset of owners who do the right thing and virtually all cats that make it to any human system at all. Now you can fuck off with pushing it onto everyone which is what OP is doing in half of their posts in this thread.

Who said it was about responsible cat owners? Show me where I said all cat owners do this? Or OP for that matter? He has been responding to folks that literally say they let their pet cats outside.

That makes the comic fucking stupid. It makes the OP a jackass for targeting a group of people who aren’t the problem.

The comic is about the health of the cats. Feral cats came up as a natural progression of that discussion. I don't actually like the comic, but it isn't about the health of wildlife in any way that I can see, but about the health of house cats. It is pretty well documented that outdoor cats do not live as long as indoor only cats.

And makes you an accomplice for shilling it as well by conflating the two groups of problem as if they’re the same.

Again, when did I say they are the same group? This particular thread was because someone unrelated said domestic cats would be outside if humans weren't involved.

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