I love Linux. I'm so glad I switched both my PC and laptop to OpenSUSE and got rid of dual boot Windows. Using Linux exclusively for months has really opened my eyes to the truth:
this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2024
62 points (78.7% liked)
Programming
16996 readers
228 users here now
Welcome to the main community in programming.dev! Feel free to post anything relating to programming here!
Cross posting is strongly encouraged in the instance. If you feel your post or another person's post makes sense in another community cross post into it.
Hope you enjoy the instance!
Rules
Rules
- Follow the programming.dev instance rules
- Keep content related to programming in some way
- If you're posting long videos try to add in some form of tldr for those who don't want to watch videos
Wormhole
Follow the wormhole through a path of communities !webdev@programming.dev
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It really just depends on what you do, and how you do it.
A formula-1 car is not for normies, but a regular car is. Same principle applies here. My tech illiterate mom has Fedora on her laptop, and she finds it considerably more intuitive to use, than her previous Windows installations
This is fair. But at that point the same could be said of a Chromebook for her needs, which I’d venture is true for most people’s computing needs given entire swaths of the world do everything on a phone or tablet.
The Linux vs Windows debate is peculiar, because it really only applies to users who are more advanced than the average, arguing about problems that only arise when you want to do more demanding things with your machine like development and gaming. Your average user doesn’t care about any of the anti-monopolistic / FOSS reasons to use Linux, which makes the argument for them essentially “you should use this operating system that takes more work to use because it’s better for you for reasons you don’t care about.”
In order for Linux to become more mainstream, it needs to be able to exceed Windows’ performance and ease of use for gaming and productivity - which is challenging since when most users think of productivity apps, they only think of Microsoft products. It’s not enough to be equal in order to compel people to switch from what they’re accustomed to.
It’s easy to forget that Windows’ success doesn’t come from people seeking it out and installing it as an OS intentionally. They’re buying machines that come preloaded with it. Linux’s success, however big or small, lies in how its methods of distribution compare to Windows OEM dominance.
Let’s be real: when it comes to the actual installation of an OS, regular users ask people like us to do it for them. I don’t think Linux is going to outpace Windows anytime soon, but the last few times I’ve been asked for that kind of help, I’ve installed Linux for them, because it is absolutely ready to be used by regular people.
I fully believe PC gaming’s future is on Linux. Valve are pushing compatibility heavily enough to the point where Proton runs virtually all my games as smoothly as Windows would and as hard as it would have been to believe a few years ago, most my library has native support anyway. Combined with the fact that Linux has a smaller runtime overhead than Windows, most of my games run better.
Ease of use is the harder metric to gauge. Most people seem to forget that Windows isn’t built for ease of use; not like MacOS anyway. Things break on Windows all the time; most people are just more familiar with the common workarounds. Even installing things are easier (once the user learns the singular command they need to do this) and flatpak installations align more with how people are used to installing apps on their phones and tablets.
1000% agree.
As a software dev, I'm using windows and I know I shouldn't switch.
Tbh it's even worse, I can not switch. And that's why it's even more ridiculous. Linux power users like to say that you can do everything you can in windows but with more control. And with "control" they are right, but with "everything" more than wrong. Everything that's not working out of the box is a gamble on time wasted getting said thing to work. For the simplest thing you can be stuck for weeks just by sheer bad luck.
Say you are a software dev? Yeah Linux is pretty solid.
3d artist? Meh. Blender is the last thing that works, otherwise you are stuck. Octane, 3ds max, Maya, c4d, Houdini, v-ray, real flow, ... You gotta be lucky to find them to be compatible even if it's only with a workaround.
Music production? Well you are stuck on LMMS, which is basically only used by very specific experimental artists. Also plugins, especially those with copyright protection will give you one hell of a hard time.
Images? Well gimp is not Photoshop if we're honest, and stuff like coreldraw is also hard to replace on Linux.
Video cutting? You have to carefully tip toe about everything Adobe, and that's an awful hassle. And because everyone would love to give Adobe the middle finger, we are slowly realizing how hard it is to replace Adobe and that if you go somewhere, it is not working as well by default, you have to really make it work.
And especially in big enterprises time is money. So every time someone thinks about where to migrate to, how to migrate, or when they are migrating, and than when they have to propose new workflows, new solutions, a bunch of workarounds, maintenance pipelines, etc. it's just not worth it. Not on a big company scale, and unfortunately also not on a me scale.
At the end of the day, an OS is a tool to me, not a lifestyle choice, a hobby or a commitment. And it shouldn't be. As long as Linux is at least 2 of those things for everyone that's not using it, it's not very compelling to switch. And that goes for every distro.
Btw. this is the reason why I can understand people using apple over windows. Yeah it's 1000 bucks to take like 20min less to do a thing. But it stacks up exponentially with every device that integrates into Apple's universe. And if you spend even 20min less per day, that's already more than 2h per week that you now have to dedicate to other things.
I'm not rich and this doesn't entice me, but I get it.
So yeah, make a distro that's not only modular and expendable,but make it also very easy to understand and make it as easy. And make it either as compatible with Windows software or add those features in a different way. And then people like me can dream about a FOSS universe for everyone.
Not disagreeing with your general point, but music production in Linux is not "stuck on LMMS". Reaper runs natively, and there is plenty more.
I remember running FL Studio under Wine with no issues; Windows VSTs work under yabridge
load more comments
(1 replies)
Or be the same but cheaper, but yes inertia is huge at the difference in market share
But how do you get the average user, for whom the cost of licensing the OS is completely opaque, to even think about cost at all? The computer they bought comes with Windows or MacOS on it already. Neither of which currently has any additional recurring monetary cost to the user.
You’d need mass-market laptops and desktops coming with a Linux distribution tuned well enough to run Microsoft Office and Adobe products without any more work for the user than running them on Windows. It needs to come pre installed and work so well at the “prosumer” use cases that they aren’t constantly thinking about how much easier it was to run Windows. Doing that means the OEM has to do much more unit testing and compatibility checks to ensure that when the customer opens the box and goes to install Steam and Apex or whatever that it just works without any terminal work necessary. Add to that that the OEM will want support from the company that manages the OS, and suddenly the cost to license tried and true Windows vs almost any Linux distribution for end user workstations is nearly moot.
And to make a dent in gaming, there is still an ocean to cross in terms of driver readiness and ease of use. It’s coming along, no doubt, and Valve investing as heavily as they are in Linux gaming is sure to move the needle, but it will still be an area of difficulty for some time because the user experience needs to accommodate completely custom builds with unexpected hardware configurations and box-built gaming PCs that can be OE tested and configured and everything in between.
load more comments
(2 replies)
Linux is second nature to us IT people, so it's easy to forget that the average person probably only knows basic shell scripting and how to build programs from git repos.
And vim, of course
of course
I'd love to use Linux, but I just don't have the legs for those socks
You only have to start wearing them once you become a programmer.
load more comments
(1 replies)
Linux isn't minimal effort. It's an operating system that demands more of you than does the commercial offerings from Microsoft and Apple. Thus, it serves as a dojo for understanding computers better. With a sensei who keeps demanding you figure problems out on your own in order to learn and level up.
Guy says this as if it's a good thing lol. That's the real reason people don't use Linux, nobody making Linux seems to care about user experience for normal people.
Yea I agree. Good UX is a lot of work, and I think FOSS projects rarely prioritize it. Even good documentation is hard to come by. When you write software for your own use case, it's easy to cut UX corners, because you don't need your hand held.
And good UX for a programmer might be completely different from good UX for someone that only knows how to use GUIs. E.g. NixOS has amazing UX for programmers, but the code-illiterate would be completely lost.
I believe that the solution is "progressive disclosure", and it requires a lot of effort. You basically need every interface to have both the "handholding GUI" and the underlying "poweruser config," and there needs to be a seamless transition between the two.
I actually think we could have an amazing Linux distro for both "normies" and powerusers if this type of UX were the primary focus of developers.
What you say describes my experience 10 to 15 years ago, not my experience today. Compare the settings dialog in KDE Plasma to the windows settings dialog for instance. Or should I say myriad of Windows settings dialogues.
load more comments
(21 replies)
Linux scary. Some guy yelled at me in Finnish :(
perkele
This should be the splash screen on every distro.
This is a brilliant idea, and I’m going to do it on my machine.
Fair
That’s just how they say hello in Finland, I promise!
Makes sense. More polite than the default in Boston, if I’m honest
"There aren't enough swear-words in the English language, so now I'll have to call you perkeleen vittupää just to express my disgust and frustration with this crap." - Linus Torvalds
I mean coding is difficult enough as it is, I wouldn't choose to use an OS that makes it even harder.
I use Linux because it makes my life easier. It has better support for development. Some of the other stuff is maybe not as easy or polished, but the support for dev tools and the ease of deploying to from local machines to servers that are also running Linux makes up for it.
If I wanted more effort I'd still be using Windows. It would force me to work on cross platform development and deployment. The idea that there's value in making things unnecessarily hard is just weird. I want Linux to be as simple as possible to use, so I can spend that effort on things that actually matter.
I use Linux in part because it makes building software easier.
I agree, it's usually much easier to install required dependencies with Linux. I also recently noticed that some stuff, like compiling Rust, is much faster, but I haven't timed it.
It's definitely faster. I have seen measurements from many people showing that Windows is slower compiling Bevy on the same hardware.
load more comments
(4 replies)
For 99% of Windows or MacOS users who work in their browser and within simple applications, day-to-day Linux usage is as easy or easier than Windows. Microsoft’s monopolistic practices and lack of government intervention/regulation led us to this point plain and simple.
I just a few weeks ago successfully switched my father-in-law's mid-2011 iMac (out of support for years) to Nobara 40. It took some finagling with the SIP settings and some other macOS specific stuff before it would boot the liveUSB but once it did, it works flawlessly OOTB.
Pretty incredible how frictionless the transition was for him. He even chose to switch from chrome to the default firefox, despite me having setup chromium for him to compare (but he knows its there if a website doesn't load right in Firefox). He's in his 60's and not a techy person at all. Everything is so intuitive with KDE these days he picked it up no problem.
Only downside is background sync for KDE connect doesn't work on iOS yet, seems this is a sticking point for most FOSS apps for some reason. It was causing disconnect/pairing issues for us. But I showed him localsend for now and it works flawlessly for transferring photos from the phone to the computer.
He's happy with all the default apps and onlyoffice (which I switched out from libreoffice as I've found much more consistent formatting when sending/receiving to MSoffice users)(maybe this is outdated, haven't tried the new release). Printing and scanning was plug and play. Apple trackpad and keyboard auto-paired. I showed him how to setup widgets and he went nuts. Overall 9.95/10 would convert a normie again.
That's why I'd love to see more developers take another look at Linux. Such that they may develop better proficiency in the basic katas of the internet. Such that they aren't scared to connect a computer to the internet without the cover of a cloud.
The developers I have come across mostly use Linux if they can, or another OS if they can't (e.g. when developing specifically for Apple or Microsoft platforms). Are there many that haven't even looked at it?
I think there's a pretty big overlap of gamers and programmers who use Windows or WSL because they don't want to have to dual boot.
Games. The answer is games.
The day COD, Dota2, CS2, Overwatch 2 and all that crap runs on Linux with anti-cheat and no performance issues is the day Windows dies.
a sensei who keeps demanding you figure problems out on your own in order to learn and level up.
Ain't nobody got time for that. I don't need or want to spend my time debugging my OS for it to do what I want, I already did that and I did not exactly "level up" but I did waste a lot of time.
This is just an excuse. A poor one.
view more: next ›