this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024
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Do you remember when Sun Chips changed their chip bag material to a more environmentally friendly compostable material? People lost their minds. Why? Because the bag crinkled a lot. All of the boring late night talk shows made fun of Sun Chips bags. So, they switched it back to the old bags.
Moral of the story is that people don't care if something is better for the environment if it inconveniences them now. If everything was in cans people would cry because they can't close them or whatever. In fact, many items that were previously sold in cans are now plastic. Also, money... Cheaper to wrap water in plastic.
You can still buy Coca-cola in glass bottles if you look hard enough. But they are pricey.
I got laughed at on other platforms by older generations for even suggesting the notion of mild inconvenience to make future generations lives easier.
They don't want us or them to have a better life, not even if it costs them nothing - but ESPECIALLY not if they have to do literally anything differently.
The "fuck you I got mine" mindset. Sigh
"fuck you im gonna die before the ramifications for my actions harm anyone"
Has anyone ever said that to you?
Itβs not exclusive to older generations unfortunately.
but so much worse when it comes from them. The "I got it, and I'll never see what happens after I die so why do I care" attitude.
This is where I dispair about the future of walkable cities and trains. Can't even get a section of the population to accept stopping to charge an EV every two hours for a whole 20 minutes during the road trip they take once a month, if that. How can we convince those people to bike or take trains?
I've given up trying to convince them. They're a vocal minority. Who I talk to and work with are the quieter ones. I've found on posts and comment sections there are people who are asking honest questions and are receptive. Scroll past the chaff and you'll find them. We have a new train opening in our city and I spent a couple hours explaining to people where parking was available, how to ride it, how to pay for fare, etc. People were genuinely excited to hear that people like me are riding it! A lot of it is just anxiety of never taking transit before, and not knowing how to get started.
No... Because it crinkled at a high enough volume that you actually have to worry about hearing loss. People weren't losing their mind for no reason.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703960004575427150103293906
The Bag was louder than the ambient noise in a jet fighter cockpit in flight.
Wow, that's actually super interesting. Now I wish I had a bag to see how loud it sounds in person!
So just make aluminium bottles with a cap.
They already do in the US, they sell beer like this. And I'm pretty sure I've seen water packaged like this too.
Apparently aluminum is also heavier to ship.
Compared to barrels of crude oil, I am sure a SINGLE Block of Aluminium can be reused more than 1000X times with no environment damage.
Oh I'm sure you are right, it's the drink companies for whom the shipping expense outweighs the environmental damage, because capitalism.
It's also worth noting that transport does not have a zero cost on the environment. It's why we did away with glass, it's so heavy it actually becomes carbon intensive to transport. Especially when you account for greater spoilage percentages (due to the glass being mishandled and breaking more often than alternatives). The equation isn't as simple as it would seem. The true solution is less likely single use drink containers of any kind and more likely some sort of reusable bottle you carry around with you and could fill up.
Capitalism could solve this no problem if we just taxed externalities. Donβt even have to hit every level of the supply chain, just a big tax on fossil carbon removed from the ground, and maybe another tax where it gets transformed into plastic (a sort of externality-added tax).
The market then decided whatβs still worth making and whatβs not, based on the total cost including the new taxes, weighed against how much people are willing to pay for the stuff.
I'm curious how much the environmental costs of shipping products in aluminum containers v. lighter plastic containers changes the equation.
I also tend to think that an even better solution would be to have the consumer be the one with the container, and shipping the product in bulk, to be dispensed as a bulk item at a retail location. E.g., the packaging for shipping is the tank that the truck is towing, rather than a trailer full of individual use bottles.
Besides convenience, I think a lot of container waste is also caused by our litigious society. If you pour milk into my container and I later sue you because it makes me sick, you might decide your best defense is to sell all milk in sealed containers. (And if someone poisons some containers, you'll add tamper-proof layers.)
We don't have Sun Chips here so I'm not aware of this, but I'd be really curious to learn how much of that freakout was genuine and how much was engineered by entities with a vested interest in maintaining status quo.
They were extremely loud. That doesn't mean they should have stopped making them, but people aren't joking about them being loud.
The bags were very noticeably louder and stiffer. Not enough that I would complain but it was something you noticed right away.
You would NOT want to have one in a movie theatre.
https://youtu.be/HRWelTDdHJM
Certainly loud, but I think the way forward should have been engineering a quieter version instead of going back to plastic. And in the meantime use idk... a bowl?
Edit: use a bowl, meaning put the crisps in the bowl when you open them if the noise bothers you
Bowls of chips donβt ship well or work well with shopping
Paper tubes like Pringles, maybe.
β the entities
At the time, I thought the Sun chips bag situation was hilarious. If I think back on it now, it's really sad. Yes, the bag was significantly louder than the original bag. But I feel like we're going to need to make some sacrifices as a society for the environment. And that seems like a really, really tiny sacrifice.
Hearing loss is not an acceptable trade-off for a bag of chips.
It wasn't that loud.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703960004575427150103293906
95 decibels is loud enough that you have to be concerned about hearing loss.
https://www.ncoa.org/adviser/hearing-aids/decibel-levels/
From what distance away? Because I had them, and I promise they weren't as loud from normal use distance than a jet engine. Maybe if your ear/microphone is basically touching the bag, but your ear isn't normally that close. Plus, exposure time is pretty significant factor for hearing loss. Rolling up a chip bag once every couple of days when you have chips isn't going to cause hearing loss.
Go look up a video of these bags. Mere handling them is loud as shit. Not just when you roll them up when you're done.
NIOSH standards say that at 95db, you shouldn't be exposed to more than ~45 minutes of it. Where-as an alternative "loud" bag was 77 db, which is longer than 50 hours of exposure (exceeds the rolling period and is thus "safe").
Noise exposure is additive during a rolling period. So just saying "once every few days" is bullshit. This isn't something that happens or can be in a vacuum. It's adding to the total exposure that you're exposed to every day. On top of the rest of your day the 95db chip bag is a really stupid fucking way to damage your hearing. Because you chose to eat some chips while watching a movie one night.
As someone with tinnitus... Fuck people who downplay hearing loss/damage. You should be doing everything possible to keep your exposure to anything above 80db to a minimum.
If you can, get Coca-Cola from Mexico. Its all glass and uses cane sugar.
Not that it isn't still junk food and horrible for you. HFCS might be a worse form of sugar, but in the end they're still refined sugars. It's worth noting that Mexico and the US have similar obesity rates. There are more factors than just beverages involved, but it is one.
That sounds terrible!
Another way to put this is we all live in many different environments, including our clothes, room, home, neighborhood, etc
I would water the number one reason for not wanting the crinkle bags is to permit quiet night time snacking so as not to wake others in the house.