this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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People overlook vegetarianism and semi-vegetarian lifestyles as an option too much and it is not helpful that real life examples of vegetarian cultures, get co-opted by Vegans purists as "Vegan cultures" in easily disproven claims- thus hurting the whole movement
I don't eat meat or dairy, so i technically i'm a vegan, right? But i wouldn't identify as a vegan. When someone cooks and says: oh i forgot that you are vegan, and i used butter, still eat it. When i'm at a bbq and there is a steak leftover, and no one eats it and it goes to the trash, i would eat it. I find the idea of factory meat absolutely repulsive therefore i don't support it in any way. Once i talked to a vegan guy, and he was super weird so we didn't have a lot to talk about. I told him something like: when i was a kid i was really into chicken wings, and now in hindsight, i don't think chicken is actually good. And he said: oh, you are one of THOSE people. Meat eater are like pedophiles, once you fucked a kid, you'll always be a childfucker.
Eh... Okay, i'll just stand over there and make sure to never talk to you again
this is called flexitarianism and is totally valid in terms of not wasting food and cohabitating in society. unfortunately some vegetarians would bully a person like you since ideological purity is more important than not wasting food to them
*Some vegans
I've never seen a vegetarian bully someone for not being purist enough. Vegans however do it constantly and even harass vegetarians
perhaps
they are great conversations about why people are so annoyed by vegans and most of the time it's not because vegans are harassing or pushing their agenda, it's more a question of how we perceive ourself when comparing ourself to others.
it's due to cognitive dissonance.
For me it is usually due to how incessantly preachy and judgemental some vegans are. I respect their choices and consistent choice of morality. But people tend to get annoyed when someone else feels the right to dictate their morality to them. See also: religious nuts.
I totally understand your point of view and think that your perception is valid. If you try to analyse why you find them preachy and judgemental it could be interesting.
For example would find them so annoying if you agree with them? Is it the discourse that annoys you or the person? Is it your belief system being challenged that annoys you or the facts that are being stated?
It's always intersting to understand why we feel that way when we are challenged, and veganism is one of a few topic that can create what we called in psychology reactance, an interesting topic.
Veganism is really different than religion tho, cause it is totally backed by science (regarding food production, waste issue, C02 and sentientism) and a logic construct.
I appreciate that you are willing to engage on the topic respectfully. And you ask good questions.
I have spent some time pondering the choice of veganism vs meat eating vs vegetarianism in the past.
I agree it is important to examine one's emotional reactions. That is how, ultimately, I left behind religion. And that experience is what colors my view and provides the answer to my reaction.
To wit, one of the (many) things that I chafed against was people dictating to me what my morality must be as if they are the final arbiters of absolute morality. It is one thing to disagree, to share your own morality, to state your beliefs. To state what the other person must believe, that is what I find annoying.
It's an interesting topic because one then has to ask, what is the difference between this and me arguing with a bigot? I believe very strongly that people are all on equal footing and of equal regardless of skin color, ethnicity, gender identity / expression, etc.
So how do I engage with racists...and why? E.g., Is it to change their minds? I mean that would be nice. But really it is to make certain their viewpoint never goes unchallenged.
And if I am morally reprehensible to a vegan, does that give them the right to challenge me? Yes. Does it give them the right to tell me what my morality must be? Hmm. If yes then I have the right to tell bigots what their morality must be too and I haven't grounds for complaint if someone does this to me. If no, then I may need to engage differently with bigots.
Now I could argue "but I am right about bigotry" and "being omnivorous isn't actually wrong" ... But that's from my perspective. I'm trying to step out of my belief system to look at this.
It isn't the scientific facts that are an issue; I am aware of them and don't dispute them. I have no qualms about reducing or eliminating most of the meat industry based on its environmental impacts. And I do wish to reduce my meat consumption on those grounds, not on moral grounds.
I've got an... overly simplified answer:
To a bigot, your challenges are annoying so they would avoid talking with you. So if you do want to engage with them, constantly (and aggressively) challenging their bigotry will prevent that. But why would you want to interact with bigots unless you absolutely had to? Their bigotry chafes you as much or more than your challenges chafe them. But also, if you live in some backwater place, and constantly seeking out and challenging bigotry means everybody around you wants nothing to do with you, then you're going to have a rough time.
In the same way, a vegan person challenging your dietary choices chafes you, and they may feel (and you may understand) that they have every reason to make the challenge, but it still is likely to prevent you wanting to engage with them. If most people around them are not vegan, and they seek out opportunities to challenge people, they're going to have a bad time.
But I also think there is a big difference between being in the minority and seeking out opportunities to challenge people (e.g. vegans in meat-eating society) and being the majority and seeking out opportunities to challenge people (e.g. religious area and self-righteous pricks starting conversations by asking if you are worried about going to hell).
For me it is the wholesale - "Everyone can do this, it is a moral failing on your part that you aren't already vegan" that irks me.
I have a combination of diseases that mean I could never go vegan, but every single time I have interacted with a vegan online they take the stance that I am lying/wrong and just justifying my choices. Well - My choice is to not die of malnutrition while being tied to a toilet 24/7.
Like yes, random internet vegan - You certainly know my dietary needs better than my doctor and I do...
It's about decreasing demand not decreasing waste. The purpose of flexitarianism is to reduce the demand for animal byproducts. Food waste is a much bigger issue at chain restaurants, especially fast food as it's often thrown out at the end of the shift as spoilage.
By not eating food that has already been bought and prepared you do not decrease demand.
Food waste in American homes is miniscule compared to the food waste in chain restaurants and fast food. You eating or not eating that steak is a mouse fart in a hurricane. There aren't enough mice to turn this train around. Food waste needs to be tackled in a very different way than demand. A vegan restaurant is just as likely to waste food as an omnivore restaurant is.
https://www.businessinsider.com/solving-food-waste-in-americas-restaurants-2016-5
That's probably one in 100,000 vegans
Woah this got dark.
I eat whatever I am able to afford and local to me. And I continue to eat what tastes good to me.
Thanks. I've always wonder what you ate.
I've had debates with vegans on something similar:
I'm not vegan, I'll never be vegan. That's a complete non-starter for me.
What I have done is reduce my meat intake from 2/sometimes 3 meals a day to 1 meal per day - occasionally (less than once per month) two. Once Lab-grown meat is a viable alternative on cost/taste/texture, I'll be all over that. I still won't be vegan. Even if I reach a point where no animals are harmed from my diet.
I believe it is far easier to convince 1 Million people to do this than it would be to convert 100,000 people to full veganism. A Million people doing this would save Billions more animals per year than 100,000 vegan conversions and maybe even in itself convert a few of those people to full veganism along the way.
They're never interested. It's all or nothing. Black or white. Vegan or Animal killer. They usually have issues with lab grown meat, as well.
It's as though they're a member of an elite club and membership is more important than actually saving animals.
I mean, most vegans would still commend your effort to reduce animal product consumption.
But from a moral standpoint, simply eating less animal products really doesn't have much value. Imagine using your argument for other moral dilemmas.
"Racism is wrong, so I reduced the amount of racial slurs I use to only 1/3"
"Rape is wrong, so I only rape on Mondays now" (in reference to meatless Mondays)
I hate to be so militant about it, but you either think animal abuse is acceptable or you don't.
Now, what I do think could be a moral standpoint, if you really want to still be able to eat meat, is to only eat "humane" meat. I put "humane" in quotes because even farmers with the best intentions are still killing animals young. I don't personally believe any animal product can be humane, but even then I can recognize that any animal that was raised on a pasture and ate real food is more ethical to eat than one in a factory.
So if you genuinely only ate pasture raised beef and chicken (and you were sure about it), then I would say that is quite honorable.
Ahh yeah about that: My reasons are not what you're calling "moral". We are naturally omnivores. We've been omnivorous since before we came down from the trees. Probably since before we left the water. I don't have a problem eating meat. I think a vegan diet is unnatural for us, though I have no issues with anyone who chooses that lifestyle.
My reasons are from a sustainability/environmental position. Our present consumption levels already put a strain on the planet, and we sure couldnβt sustain it if everyone on the planet ate meat three meaty meals a day. This is another reason Iβm all about that lab grown meat.
Okay but there's a moral hierarchy when it comes to eating meat. Humans used to hunt, meaning we would kill animals that lived natural lives. Not to mention, we would typically target animals that were older or sickly, because we would have a harder time killing animals that are in their prime.
That's so much different from modern day agriculture practices. We raise animals in fences so tight they can't turn their heads, and feed them nasty stuff. We abuse the shit out of them until they reach the point where we deem them the most profitable then we kill them. There's nothing natural about that.
Also, it's really hard to know for sure, but we have a good amount of evidence that humans didn't eat that much meat. First of all, the animals we hunted wouldn't be nearly as fat as the animals we eat today. Secondly, there's evidence that many humans ate roughly 100g of fiber per day, which is not possible if you had any serious amount of meat. Humans ate a lot of plants. 100g of fiber is an insane amount of plants.
I find it so crazy when i stumble across a post of yours in the wild! Hi!
This is disingenuous AF. The vegans I've known would have all taken this huge win
You're probably still eating way too much animal products and you'll most likely get bowel cancer and gout if you keep eating like that.
Most likely? By this logic, most people are killed by bowel cancer. They aren't.
I've never been closer to vegan than I am now. And I love meat and animal products and have long given up on the illusion of any ethical consumption in capitalism. It just turns out meat is way overpriced and you can make some tasty meals for cheap without meat and most animal products.
I'm a vegetarian just because it's the cheapest option. Meat is absurd in prices while going fully vegan, where I live, isn't feasible either.
So I live off a mostly vegetarian diet. It's not even for ethical reasons. It's literally a "I want to save money" motivation.
Yeah the only animal I'm tryna save is me. Shits insane rn.
Once governments stop or reduce funding for the meat and dairy industries, prices will continue to go up and more people will be like you. At the end of the day, animal products (especially those from bovines) aren't super sustainable and cost a lot more than we pay at the supermarket.
It's pretty nuts what they're asking for meat. I don't do the major shopping in the family but last time I went to get some ground beef... holy sweet baby cheez wiz. I could swear it the price had doubled since the last time I looked (which was probably pre covid).
There are so many great vegetarian recipes out there. Like, I mean, original things that were designed without meat in mind from the start not fake meat stuff like those vegetarian ribs I made one time. shudders
The prices for beyond/impossible are 1:1 with real ground beef at my local grocerywhore.
The choice is so easy.
"the prices are 1:1 with real ground beef"
Okay, does it provide the same nutrients at the same amount of higher? Even then you're comparing to ground beef, which is too expensive on its own already
I'll stick to my vegetarian diet
I wish those worked for me. It's an autistic texture thing for me, so anytime I try substitutes I nearly gag.
I think as something like a burger it's not that great but stuff like shepherds pie or meatballs where I'm adding other ingredients and seasoning it's indistinguishable. I even fooled my whole family with some homemade beyond meatballs.
Now I kinda wanna try a hamburger lasagna.
Honestly I feel like the idea of "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is so lame. Like I understand that you could find something technically ethically wrong with everything, but that statement just feels like a way for people who don't want to give up certain things to justify themselves.
Capitalism, especially modern day capitalism where the government and companies collaborate, does lead to a lot of ethical issues. And yes, I understand that it is not liveable to give up everything that is unethical. But you can still have boundaries.
I mean like, buying oats and grains from a grocery store, which are typically grown domestically, compared to buying dead abused animals or bananas from a company that uses slave labor. Those are totally different things.
If you prioritize buying things that are made in countries that have better labor laws, and avoid animal products, then that's a pretty damn good start.
You absolutely can't let perfect be the enemy of good.
To be honest, I could see myself as a vegetarian. I can still eat eggs, have mayo, and most importantly, eat cheese. Also with vegans, they don't just abstain from eating animals, they also abstain from consuming animal products, and using them in general meaning that not only are you giving up on eggs and cheese, but also leather boots and jackets etc. That's too much. We are omnivores. Our ancestors survived on the scraps left by lions and other predators. Our only way to keep warm was leather skins. We could survive on berries and fungi, but we couldn't keep warm with fire only. Anyways, I'm taking this a bit too far, but my point is, I'm supportive of vegetarians, but not of vegans.
human are omnivore, it's a biological trait not a diet. Being omnivore doesn't mean that you need to consume animal products, in the contrary, it means that you can avoid them and still strive, as opposed as carnivore.
own your choices, plain and simple. don't blame other for taking action to reduce suffering, CO2 and waste of ressources.
I think our ancestors also hunted large game which is why we evolved to be endurance hunters. Not that we are bound so tightly to our evolutionary as all that. But still.
I support vegans and respect their decisions, I just have little interest in being one myself.
Although when I buy leather products (belts shoes) I tend to buy ones that last decades. So there's that. And yeah I try to reduce meat consumption and I strive to do better.
Humanity has changed a lot over the years, much of it by choice.
There's no such thing as the diet police. No one not terminally-online really gives a shit about movement-purity. Just eat as ethically as possible.
What? You're saying that because we needed leather in the past, we can't wear cotton now to keep warm? At one point we didn't have easy access to plant-based proteins so we should continue eating animal products? By that logic, we didn't have vaccines in the past, so does that mean we can't use them now? Our ancestors also didn't have the internet, so why are you here?
The past was a completely different world. Don't let it hold you back from doing better now.
I exclusively eat meat but I consider myself Vegan because my species comes from the Vega star system.
the fact that you label some vegan as purist says more about your own conflicts that the way vegan choose to live. vegan purist is a nonsense. you are either vegan or not.
you choose what you consume, but don't put the blame on vegan. for me being vegetarian or carnist is not so different. vegetarian are still supporting the status quo and it's fair to state this fact.
once again it's your choice. own it.
Sorry, but I just don't think this attitude is useful for reducing harm to animals. It's rare for people to hear about veganism and then go straight from eating meat to eating 0 animal products, for 100 reasons. I spent like 10 years vegetarian before finally going vegan.
This overly critical attitude and stereotypes associated with it do a lot to push people away from bothering with making any steps at all.
No one is able to fully eliminate animal harm from their lives, and any steps that anyone is making on the road to reducing it should be applauded. It's our only option if we want to be anything other than a hated minority.
no. the attitude that is not useful is to make up arguments to justify our choices.
we know the fact. we choose to act on them or not. and this is the same for a lot more topics than veganism.
don't return the responsibility on the people who act to diminish suffering and waste of ressources. vegetarians like carnists contribute to keep the status quo. it's not debatable.
you choose to live how you want - within the limit of the law - and it's totally ok. but own your choices, you don't need to justify them.
we all are full of contradiction, and it's more than ok. but don't make up stuff to make them ok. just accept them.