this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2023
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You know, if you use Linux you don't have to jump through hoops like this (trivial though they may be). Wouldn't it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
Some of you sound like the annoying stereotype of vegans pushing their diet lifestyle.
That's because like vegans, there is a moral imperative that most ignore or don't care about, we have a genuine emotional attachment to foss, and because you are ignorant of the topic, you don't care to listen.
What he said is harmless, true, and there is a moral imperative to say it, and ontop of that it isn't like a diet, it's better software that respects you, doesn't spy on you, and for free and the only downside is a 15 minute install process (and the use of a flash drive). Why do you care enough to fight that?
I'm all for Linux and have been using it for years, but saying a 15min install is the only downside is disingenuous. For many people there are a few programs they rely on that won't work on Linux, and hardware support and general user-friendliness are still not quite where they should be.
the vast majority of hardware is supported, and as someone who works IT and gives linux to the elderly, I don't agree at all with the user unfriendliness, provided you use mint and kde.
If your software doesn't run that does suck, but the vast majority of usecases work perfectly with the breif explanation of "use the app store for any software you need to install." Do you have any examples of user friendliness issues, or is it just that there are choices to make at all?
"The vast majority" is useless if the hardware someone has doesn't work, and you usually don't get official support and warranty from the manufacturer for Linux. There are also some categories like webcams, audio equipment or fingerprint readers where Linux support is still notoriously bad. And even if something mostly works, it's fairly common for some hardware to have missing features, instabilities or minor issues on Linux. E.g. my mouse works on Linux ofc, but the software to set and edit profiles doesn't.
Usability issues are mostly cases where you have to fall back to the terminal. An example from my experience would be that trying to upgrade the system from the app store fails half the time, so I have to use the terminal. Another would be a failed boot or graphics issues due to a broken Nvidia driver installation or messed up SELinux policies. It's all fixable in the terminal, but good luck if you can't use that.
I agree with you. Plus, most of us are forced to use Windows 11 at work, where we spend most of our screen time.
Maybe I can bother with Linux at home, but that's a fraction of the use case here.
The whole point of computers, as far as I can tell, is to be that abusive relationship we never could perfect with humans. Linux is no exception, it's just more passive-aggressive and better with gaslighting.
"You see, if only you'd installed this dependency, which I showed you so clearly in the error logs all along - and I categorised them so nicely - but you never like to look there, do you? - I mean, I understand, and that's why I mentioned it - not too strongly, because I didn't want to upset you more - in the terminal output..."
Most Linux developers don't include anti-features on purpose, but Windows developers do.
I think dependencies have gotten simpler on Linux with flatpak. The fact that the command-line is still sometimes needed on Linux is just a fact of life. Nobody is forcing users to use it out of any sort of passive-aggressive distain for users, but just that it takes less time out of volunteer developers' schedules to buold command-line tools.
I think one thing to note in the CLI-GUI debate though is that Windows pushed hard against CLI interfaces from day 1. Even starting with Windows 3, there were a lot of things you couldn't do with CLI easily, while Unix has always had full CLI support. Users being unfamiliar with CLI interfaces is a symptom of Windows dominance.
Or Windows dominance is a symptom of the average computer user struggling with a cli
I mean it's so logical, I have real troubles figuring out why so many people don't get it.
You can't immediately see what options you have in a command line.
In a UI, you see the "menu" button right there.
If you have no idea about anything, in a UI, you can still click on the menu button, and are presented with more options.
In a command line, if you have absolutely no clue, what do you need to do? Honestly, you have to ask someone who knows (be it a friend, a manual, or web search). You can randomly start typing or press keys, but the chance to get to something useful is very low.
I use command line by choice on Linux, but find myself forced to use PowerShell to make a windows installation that is somewhat bearable.
Package managers have become so much better with dependencies. It's been a while since I've encountered an issue, with yay it very usually works out of the box.
Listen, I probably one of the most hardcore linux propagandists out there, which spells disaster when I confess I'm anything but a tech guru, but even I am aware some people are too off the deep end to swim back and move to another OS.
Windows is locked in a dominant position and regardless how bad their solutions are in fact, not enough tech/privacy aware high level managers exist to push windows off the corporate shelf.
The alternative is to spread Linux and FOSS to kids and incentivize the use and exploring of technology because it is simply fun to do it, not shotgun proseletize and hope something sticks.
Your intention is good but the method, which I often use as well, needs a lot of refining.
And if you use Linux you have to jump through hoops to install (non-steam) games. I know, just yesterday I had to search a working tutorial for installing Fall Guys.
BTW for anyone needing help in the future, this worked: https://youtu.be/X41PlQNx0vk
In that same Linux I had to rack my brain and still failed to launch the game I want.
You mean like that relationship?
Sure Linux has its own pros, but not what I need.
I used to think the same and sure there are still definitely games that won't work, but gaming on Linux has come a loooong way. And with the recent bullshit that Microsoft is pulling with Windows 10 and especially 11 I just couldn't take it anymore.
I just pulled the trigger last week and took out my Windows 10 drive! Ironically, league of legends broke on Linux again the next day. But I'm sticking with it. Windows is just so slow, bloated, and hard to navigate. And all my games run fine on Linux. LoL will probably be fixed again soon.
I'd say Linux not running League is a feature 🙂 come play StarCraft and micro more than one unit 😁
Or Dota.
Join us over at !dota2@lemmy.ml :)
Are you using Steam? What game isn't compatible with Linux and/or requires significant user effort to run?
I've spent countless hours playing a game called Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI with PUK, which comes with its own DRM (non-Steam). Despite its availability on Steam, I'm hesitant to buy it again for the same experience, especially since it doesn't run on Linux.
Another game I enjoy, Dead by Daylight on Steam, consistently runs into issues such as severe memory leaks, unresponsive spacebar after alt-tabbing, random freezes, and occasional stutters no matter what troubleshooting I attempt.
Lastly, my wife and I frequently play Fall Guys. While it's mostly audio-related, there are occasional random disconnects that never happen on Windows, which can be frustrating for a game meant for casual enjoyment
Linux not being able to launch a game (that probably was not made for it) is not a relationship issue but a technical one.
Even if it is possible to run the game but you need to hack around your distro's configurations, you can be certain the default configuration was not made with the specific intent of preventing you from running the game.
In the Windows case you are not hacking around with the json file to solve a technical issue.
Windows is not misconfigured, it's Microsoft's explicit decision to prevent you from removing some of it's software even if it's forced by law to do so for other people.
It's ok if you don't mind Microsoft's behavior or you just find Linux's technical issues more important in choosing an OS. But the issues are not similar neither equivalent.
It's not Linux or Windows. For example Gaming and everyday Tasks I use Windows because Games I play run much better on Windows and I like to use it more. But for things like programming I will use Linux. I'm just beginning learning to code but I already made the painful experience of trying to get compiler, debugger etc. running on windows.
Linux and Windows are Tools. You can't use a Hammer for every Taks, sometimes you need a Screwdriver.
Ableton Live and plugins don't work on Linux, and I'd rather run it on my own build, so I have to use Windows. That's also the machine I game on. Everything else is Debian.
You could try Bitwig. I have a friend that prefers it over Ableton even on Windows. And Windows-only VSTs work with Yabridge
Thanks for the Bitwig suggestion, I'll look into it.
I've tried to set up multitrack recording a few times on Linux and regularly run into configuration issues. It is clearly not at parity with Windows. And even when one flavor of software does work, that's not the same as someone's chosen software working.
Some people have a workflow where they need to share stems and settings with collaborators or for mixing, which requires a specific program. And there's still a fair amount of personal investment in learning the power features of a given DAW.
I'm using Linux as a daily driver and would like to see wider adoption. Unfortunately this is an area where I can't recommend it.
Yeah, let me know when Revit, Civil 3D, ArcGIS, OpenRoads Designer are operable and supported on Linux.