this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2022
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Seems pretty mild compared to what we're seeing in the west.
He is already from Russia I believe
My family migrated from Russia back in the 90s after the collapse.
I've explained my position repeatedly and in detail in many threads.
First, I don't have a bias towards Russia. I think Russia is generally as bad as the west, and suffers from many of the same problems being a capitalist shithole. What I take issue with is painting Russia as some kind of a unique evil. The west has done and is currently doing exact same things all around the world. For example, US is currently occupying large parts of Syria and NATO is helping facilitate a genocide in Yemen.
Meanwhile, the framing that the war in Ukraine is solely the fault of Russia is also fallacious and ignores the history that led up to the war. It doesn't mean Russia are the good guys here or that I support the war, but it's obscene to ignore the role the west played in creating the conditions for it.
It's also clear to me that the narrative that western propaganda paints about the state of the war is at odds with reality. This propaganda is used to continue driving western support for continuation of the war. Many thousands of people have died or had their lives ruined as a result of that.
This whole war could've been avoided if the west stated that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO. Peace could've been negotiated in April if the west didn't step in to stop it. The west continues to pour fuel on the fire with the obsession of trying to weaken Russia. All that's accomplishing is ruining the lives of people all across the world.
On the other hand, I genuinely support China because it's a successful socialist country that's been consistently improving the lives of its people and provides an alternative to the capitalist hell that the west promotes.
I have lived in the Soviet Union, I've also lived through the collapse of USSR and all the US interference that resulted in horrors I had to live through under Yeltsin.
@yogthos @sizeoftheuniverse your lovely socialist China is not very bothered with human rights, especially for Uyguhrs. Russia did not invade Ukraine merely to prevent them jouning NATO (doesn’t match timeline either) Western support is not so much to weaken Russia, although by now that seems a bonus, but to protect a European independent country under attack. I see a number of flaws in your rant.
The millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”. CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective. You’d need a detention city the size of San Francisco to detain one million Uighurs.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:
US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west.
Finally, if you were really worried about human rights then you should probably be more worried about the fact that the US holds 20% of world's prison population as slave labour.
The war is a result of tensions that were largely escalated by NATO, and plenty of experts in the west have been warning about this for many years now. Here's what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/
https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Academics, such as John Mearsheimer, gave talks explaining why NATO actions would ultimately lead to conflict this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
These and many other voices were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
I see some flaws in your understanding of the subject you're opining on.
What is your opinion of this NYT article that uses a source inside the CCP? It doesn't seem to be related to Zenz.
I think it's absolute horseshit designed for gullible dimwits, as many NYT articles have been shown to be over the years. If you believe that NYT has some secret source inside the CPC, I have bridge to sell you.
Why don't we have a look at what leaders of Muslim countries who actually visited Xinjiang have to say https://www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/wjbxw/202208/t20220809_10737758.html
If China was an actual threat to Muslims then all the Muslim majority countries wouldn't be supporting China. I love how Americans, who've made massacring Muslims into a sport, see themselves as a champion of Muslim rights in China while ignoring what actual Muslims say. You really can't make this shit up.
Ah yes, a Chinese government website. They couldn't possibly have a biased angle. And you never actually addressed anything about the NYT article, just dismissed it outright as essentially a hoax.
Address the content of the article instead of using ad hominem. The article discusses the fact that Muslim majority nation leaders came to China, toured Xinjiang, and support China. These are verifiable facts. Meanwhile, your NYT article has no verifiable facts. That's the difference. I find it depressing that I have to spell this out for you.
It's not an ad hominem attack. It's completely justified to question how objective an account is when it's literally propaganda. In this particular case, the envoys come from countries that need to play nice with China. They were likely given a highly limited tour. And even if they had expressed discomfort, would a CPC press release ever mention it?
They have been transparent about the general outline of who their source is, and why they do not want their identity revealed. Given that a source of that nature could be killed for that sort of leak, do you blame them?
Yes, it is an ad hominem attack. You're discarding the source solely based on the fact that it comes from China. It literally states the fact that Muslim leaders toured Xinjiang and their comments about their trip. The envoys come from the vast majority of Muslim countries in the world.
Ah yes, all these envoys are just too dumb to understand what's happening, it takes a white man from a country that hunts Muslims for sport to tell them what's good for the Muslims. You ever listen to yourself?
I have a bridge to sell you, please dm. The article is literally unverifiable in any way. This is the same level of proof as the US official who was claiming that there was evidence that Russian missiles hit Poland before that story was debunked.
You believe this article to be true solely because it fits your biases, which is precisely what this sort of propaganda hinges on. You've convinced yourself that China is some despotic regime without bothering to learn the first thing about the country, and now you'll uncritically accept any propaganda that confirms your biases.
I'm sure they know exactly what they're doing, protecting their own country's interests. I don't for one moment think they would put the Uyghurs' rights over the economic interests of their own country.
So is yours, beyond "these people came to China". Well where did they tour? Was the tour complete? Were they given unfettered access to Uyghurs that did not fear a reprisal? The article proves nothing. Meanwhile the New York Times has picked apart the document they were given. Are you saying that they are liars?
Ah yes, and NYT is not protecting US interests, but is rather genuinely concerned about Uyghurs in China. Gotcha!
At the very least my article documents an actual even that happened and the reactions from real people who toured China. The fact that you can't see the difference between them says volumes.
Yes, because NYT has a history of lying. NYT published a shitload of articles from Zenz as well and these have been thoroughly debunked. NYT is a propaganda tool. It's frankly shocking that you don't understand that.
Okay, an article from a journalist who has been on the ground then. China has tight control over journalism in Xinjiang. This journalist found that his sources - both Uyghur and Han Chinese - were going silent. Other journalists report being followed, hacked, having hotel rooms searched, etc. China can paper over their actions with carefully curated tours by tame envoys all they want. It doesn't change that they're not acting like an innocent party.
Why don't we look at a much more recent article from an AP journalist on the ground that failed to find any of the things western media keeps saying are happening actually happening https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
Literally all you have is FUD without any concrete evidence for the claims. Also, if there were atrocities happening in Xinjiang that western media claims are happening we'd see a huge flood of refugees, like 2.2 million refugees we see from Afghanistan where actual crimes against humanity have been committed by your country.
On that subject, it's pretty weird to see Americans doing hand wringing over the plight of Uyghurs when US holds 20% of world's prison population as literal slave labor. The prisoners in US also just happen to be predominantly minorities. Even if the claims about Uyghurs were taken at face value, they pale to what's happening in US right now. These are well documented atrocities as opposed to imagined ones.
Did you read that article? It says the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Conditions may have changed some, but the Chinese government is still oppressive towards the Uyghur minority. And they made it very clear that they could tell Chinese officials were censoring locals.
This would seem to explain it. China is preventing them from leaving, and when they do manage to then China pressures other countries to return them. No such pressure existed in Afghanistan.
They're well documented because the US is an open society with a free press and organizations that concern themselves with the overuse of prisons. Government agents stalking journalists reporting on the prison system would be considered a scandal, not the norm.
It actually doesn't say the exact opposite. When you read the actual facts that the journalist observes, as opposed to the spin, they do not find any of the oppression they're looking for.
No, they claimed that without providing any actual evidence for that happening. It's like you don't understand how to separate facts from opinions.
Refugees would be going to all the neighbouring countries across the border from Xinjiang. Only a tiny minority of refugees goes to US from Afghanistan. They flood to the countries around Afghanistan.
LMFAO imagine genuinely believing that.
They noticed someone talking freely the first time, then the person being talked to by the men trailing the journalists, then the person they spoke to made a zipping motion across their mouth. It's not spin, it's being perceptive.
Their movements are tightly monitored and controlled. They are not allowed to travel. Afghans were always able to travel, even if some travel could be dangerous.
Are you incapable of thinking a single positive thing about US society? Yes, we have a free press, and there has been plenty of criticism and coverage of the criminal justice system.
Again, the narrative that the intrepid western journalists are uncovering crimes fits your existing biases, and that's what makes it such an easy sell for you.
You're willing to ignore all the objective evidence such as lack of any of these massive prison facilities, lack of refugees, and so on in favor of these subjective observations which you think are "perceptive".
If you don't understand why that statement is absurd, I encourage you to think about it a bit about what you said there. Also, explain what reason China would have to prevent these people from leaving. If these people are dissidents that would cause trouble, then China would be glad to get rid of them. None of what you say makes any logical sense.
I'm certainly incapable of doing mental gymnastics where US is a free and open society that has free press. One has to be utterly ignorant to say such things. Entire books have been written showing this to be false.
Okay, then how are you explaining the shopkeeper making a zipped lips motion? That doesn't seem so subjective.
China has leaned on other governments to return asylum seeking Uyghurs. The article I linked to mentions several cases.
Oh? Am I going to get yet another link to Manufacturing Consent, work of infallible leftist god Noam Chomsky? Oh wait, there are literally thousands of articles bemoaning the school to prison pipeline, 90's crime bill, three strikes laws, systemic racism, and hunger where there should be abundance. These are widely discussed in US politics.
Again, that's an anecdote reported by a person with a particular agenda. You can go on youtube and find tons of videos of people living in Xinjiang, including westerners, and they go around and interact with people. Here's an example.
You mean US and Saudi trained terrorists?
Weird how none of that talking actually translates into any actual action. It's as if these kinds of articles are designed for the specific purpose of having a veneer of discussion so that people like you can point to them and claim there's freedom of speech.
Free speech is a completely meaningless term unless that speech can be translated into action. Whenever there is a threat of actual action then you end up like MLK and Fred Hampton. Chapter 10 in this book documents lots of examples of political repression in US using intimidation and violence.
No, I mean people fleeing China and seeking asylum.
Good thing that guy doesn't have any bias or anything. Not like he didn't just wander right by the SWAT guy "having a nice chat". Nothing could possibly be intimidating about a police officer in a SWAT jacket dropping by your store. No siree.
There's action on criminal justice reform. It mostly is on the state level at the moment.
Yup, the US doesn't have a pure history or present. But it doesn't approach China's open and systematic repression of dissent, and you're well into whataboutism territory at this point.
Right, the terrorists that US and Saudis have been funding to do terrorist attacks in China. These are your friends seeking asylum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Juma_Tayir
Did you as an American just criticize China for having police that's too militarized? Amazing levels of cognitive dissonance here. 😂
The reason you think that is because your propagandist tell this. You have zero actual knowledge of China. It's a country you've never been to, you don't know people living there, only things you know about this country about this country come the media you consume. The same media that constantly lies about everything.
And don't deflect with your whataboutism bullshit from the fact that you ignore the same kind of crimes happening in your own country that you accuse China off. These are far better documented and have far more evidence for them than the straws you're grasping at. If you actually cared about these things then you'd be denouncing your own country. Instead, you're just looking for ways to justify your chauvinism.
In objective terms your country is responsible for far worse systemic repression than anything observed in China. The enormous prison population alone is a clear example of that. US imprisons far more people per capita than China does. And if we include all the horrors your nightmarish empire is responsible for around the world then you have no leg to stand on accusing any other country.
People in China see their lives improve each and every decade, while people in US are having their lives destroyed by the oligarchs. If you cared about actual tangible freedoms, then you'd care about freedom to have housing, healthcare, education, and jobs. Freedom to live a life free from want.
Please do explain to me how those 200 people in Thailand have anything to do with Juma Tayir. Or is collective punishment in vogue again?
I've criticized the American police as being too militarized and unaccountable. Doesn't mean that I can't criticize China for using its police to intimidate its people.
I criticize my country. I want it to improve. I've never, ever seen you criticize China. Not once.
I assume you're being intentionally obtuse. I provided an example of the kinds of people we're talking about here. You can read the book by an ex CIA asset that I linked in this thread earlier that details how CIA has been training these extremists with the intent of destabilizing China. Incidentally, this is exactly the same playbook US used with mujahideen in Afghanistan. You guys aren't very creative.
Difference is that we have plenty of tangible evidence for what US does.
I have yet to have a single conversation with you where you actually criticize US or accept any criticism of it. What you do without fail is whitewash the crimes of your country.
Uh... that article. The one I linked from Time where it's talking about fleeing people. One group of 200 Uyghurs was deported back to China at China's request. There's nothing I can see about them having the least bit to do with the assassination of Juma Tayir, besides a shared ethnicity.
As I said, it's the consequence of an open society where we are allowed to discuss our flaws. The best disinfectant is sunlight, and in China there is no sunlight allowed.
Then you haven't been paying attention. Or perhaps I just am not always agreeing with the criticism that you want me to agree with? I'm not obligated to agree with your every complaint.
You are being intentionally obtuse aren't you. I used the wiki link to give an example of the types of people China is concerned about. Since you claim that you have no problems acknowledging problems with your country, it's a good time for you to show that by acknowledging that US has been sponsoring terrorists in China as well as many other countries.
I'm trying to imagine the mental gymnastics one has to go through to call a society with one of the highest incarceration rates in the world open. Do you even listen to yourself?
Your country literally runs on slave labor, and none of you even give a shit about that. Clearly there isn't enough disinfectant in this universe for you people.
Oh I have very much been paying attention. Just in this thread alone you keep calling your despotic regime an open society. In previous threads you whitewashed US involvement in Ukraine and Afghanistan, danced around the insane nuclear posture your regime has, and tried to argue that it's not an oligarchy.
You don't acknowledge a single wrong doing your regime does and praise it as some sort of free and open society which it's demonstrably not. If you held your own country to the same standards as China you'd see that China is a far better and saner society than US could ever hope to be.
Have you considered that perhaps I too disagree with the criticisms of China you want me to agree with? I’m not obligated to agree with your every complaint.
Western people never looking in the mirror is my favorite trope. Please do show a quote from me where I'm supporting what Russia is doing and promoting a Russia in a positive light. I'll wait.
edit: kind of hilarious how your whole account seems to exist for the sole purpose of harassing me. Your entire post history is just you trying to smear me. 😂
I just love to play with sock puppets since I was a child.
The entire history of this account is following me around like a lost puppy. It's adorable.
I never see you condemn Russia or China for anything. You spend all your time on here defending/denying the existence of any faults in Russia and China.
Most people on LemmyNet (excluding LemmyGrad) will condemn Western countries as well as Russia/China.
I honestly believe you either have mental problems or are part of a state-run astroturfing operation.
I think there's quite enough condemning of Russia and China of everything under the sun in western media. I think providing a counter perspective is valuable. I don't know why you think that's such a gotcha.
I also love the whole enlightened centrism notion of people having some sort of a duty to condemn both sides. I choose the topics I want to focus on, and if you have topic you want to focus on that's up to you. Stop trying to police other people's speech.
Absolutely hilarious how liberals bloviate about freedom of speech but then rabidly attack anybody who exercises it in the way they don't like. Having such a reaction to seeing views you disagree with may be a sign of having serious mental problems.
I see people doing the opposite a lot of the time actually. Lots of people here whitewash what the west is doing and make excuses.
I honestly believe that you should get help in that case.
sorry to be nitpicky but correct spelling in this case would be "he has came from Russia" or even better "he has migrated from Russia"
If you're going to nitpick me at least be correct yourself
I was waiting how long it'd take you to reach for the good old if you don't like it here why don't you just leave trope. Such a stunning display of your intelligence.