this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2022
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I think it's absolute horseshit designed for gullible dimwits, as many NYT articles have been shown to be over the years. If you believe that NYT has some secret source inside the CPC, I have bridge to sell you.
Why don't we have a look at what leaders of Muslim countries who actually visited Xinjiang have to say https://www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/wjbxw/202208/t20220809_10737758.html
If China was an actual threat to Muslims then all the Muslim majority countries wouldn't be supporting China. I love how Americans, who've made massacring Muslims into a sport, see themselves as a champion of Muslim rights in China while ignoring what actual Muslims say. You really can't make this shit up.
Ah yes, a Chinese government website. They couldn't possibly have a biased angle. And you never actually addressed anything about the NYT article, just dismissed it outright as essentially a hoax.
Address the content of the article instead of using ad hominem. The article discusses the fact that Muslim majority nation leaders came to China, toured Xinjiang, and support China. These are verifiable facts. Meanwhile, your NYT article has no verifiable facts. That's the difference. I find it depressing that I have to spell this out for you.
It's not an ad hominem attack. It's completely justified to question how objective an account is when it's literally propaganda. In this particular case, the envoys come from countries that need to play nice with China. They were likely given a highly limited tour. And even if they had expressed discomfort, would a CPC press release ever mention it?
They have been transparent about the general outline of who their source is, and why they do not want their identity revealed. Given that a source of that nature could be killed for that sort of leak, do you blame them?
Yes, it is an ad hominem attack. You're discarding the source solely based on the fact that it comes from China. It literally states the fact that Muslim leaders toured Xinjiang and their comments about their trip. The envoys come from the vast majority of Muslim countries in the world.
Ah yes, all these envoys are just too dumb to understand what's happening, it takes a white man from a country that hunts Muslims for sport to tell them what's good for the Muslims. You ever listen to yourself?
I have a bridge to sell you, please dm. The article is literally unverifiable in any way. This is the same level of proof as the US official who was claiming that there was evidence that Russian missiles hit Poland before that story was debunked.
You believe this article to be true solely because it fits your biases, which is precisely what this sort of propaganda hinges on. You've convinced yourself that China is some despotic regime without bothering to learn the first thing about the country, and now you'll uncritically accept any propaganda that confirms your biases.
I'm sure they know exactly what they're doing, protecting their own country's interests. I don't for one moment think they would put the Uyghurs' rights over the economic interests of their own country.
So is yours, beyond "these people came to China". Well where did they tour? Was the tour complete? Were they given unfettered access to Uyghurs that did not fear a reprisal? The article proves nothing. Meanwhile the New York Times has picked apart the document they were given. Are you saying that they are liars?
Ah yes, and NYT is not protecting US interests, but is rather genuinely concerned about Uyghurs in China. Gotcha!
At the very least my article documents an actual even that happened and the reactions from real people who toured China. The fact that you can't see the difference between them says volumes.
Yes, because NYT has a history of lying. NYT published a shitload of articles from Zenz as well and these have been thoroughly debunked. NYT is a propaganda tool. It's frankly shocking that you don't understand that.
Okay, an article from a journalist who has been on the ground then. China has tight control over journalism in Xinjiang. This journalist found that his sources - both Uyghur and Han Chinese - were going silent. Other journalists report being followed, hacked, having hotel rooms searched, etc. China can paper over their actions with carefully curated tours by tame envoys all they want. It doesn't change that they're not acting like an innocent party.
Why don't we look at a much more recent article from an AP journalist on the ground that failed to find any of the things western media keeps saying are happening actually happening https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9
Literally all you have is FUD without any concrete evidence for the claims. Also, if there were atrocities happening in Xinjiang that western media claims are happening we'd see a huge flood of refugees, like 2.2 million refugees we see from Afghanistan where actual crimes against humanity have been committed by your country.
On that subject, it's pretty weird to see Americans doing hand wringing over the plight of Uyghurs when US holds 20% of world's prison population as literal slave labor. The prisoners in US also just happen to be predominantly minorities. Even if the claims about Uyghurs were taken at face value, they pale to what's happening in US right now. These are well documented atrocities as opposed to imagined ones.
Did you read that article? It says the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Conditions may have changed some, but the Chinese government is still oppressive towards the Uyghur minority. And they made it very clear that they could tell Chinese officials were censoring locals.
This would seem to explain it. China is preventing them from leaving, and when they do manage to then China pressures other countries to return them. No such pressure existed in Afghanistan.
They're well documented because the US is an open society with a free press and organizations that concern themselves with the overuse of prisons. Government agents stalking journalists reporting on the prison system would be considered a scandal, not the norm.
It actually doesn't say the exact opposite. When you read the actual facts that the journalist observes, as opposed to the spin, they do not find any of the oppression they're looking for.
No, they claimed that without providing any actual evidence for that happening. It's like you don't understand how to separate facts from opinions.
Refugees would be going to all the neighbouring countries across the border from Xinjiang. Only a tiny minority of refugees goes to US from Afghanistan. They flood to the countries around Afghanistan.
LMFAO imagine genuinely believing that.
They noticed someone talking freely the first time, then the person being talked to by the men trailing the journalists, then the person they spoke to made a zipping motion across their mouth. It's not spin, it's being perceptive.
Their movements are tightly monitored and controlled. They are not allowed to travel. Afghans were always able to travel, even if some travel could be dangerous.
Are you incapable of thinking a single positive thing about US society? Yes, we have a free press, and there has been plenty of criticism and coverage of the criminal justice system.
Again, the narrative that the intrepid western journalists are uncovering crimes fits your existing biases, and that's what makes it such an easy sell for you.
You're willing to ignore all the objective evidence such as lack of any of these massive prison facilities, lack of refugees, and so on in favor of these subjective observations which you think are "perceptive".
If you don't understand why that statement is absurd, I encourage you to think about it a bit about what you said there. Also, explain what reason China would have to prevent these people from leaving. If these people are dissidents that would cause trouble, then China would be glad to get rid of them. None of what you say makes any logical sense.
I'm certainly incapable of doing mental gymnastics where US is a free and open society that has free press. One has to be utterly ignorant to say such things. Entire books have been written showing this to be false.
Okay, then how are you explaining the shopkeeper making a zipped lips motion? That doesn't seem so subjective.
China has leaned on other governments to return asylum seeking Uyghurs. The article I linked to mentions several cases.
Oh? Am I going to get yet another link to Manufacturing Consent, work of infallible leftist god Noam Chomsky? Oh wait, there are literally thousands of articles bemoaning the school to prison pipeline, 90's crime bill, three strikes laws, systemic racism, and hunger where there should be abundance. These are widely discussed in US politics.
Again, that's an anecdote reported by a person with a particular agenda. You can go on youtube and find tons of videos of people living in Xinjiang, including westerners, and they go around and interact with people. Here's an example.
You mean US and Saudi trained terrorists?
Weird how none of that talking actually translates into any actual action. It's as if these kinds of articles are designed for the specific purpose of having a veneer of discussion so that people like you can point to them and claim there's freedom of speech.
Free speech is a completely meaningless term unless that speech can be translated into action. Whenever there is a threat of actual action then you end up like MLK and Fred Hampton. Chapter 10 in this book documents lots of examples of political repression in US using intimidation and violence.
No, I mean people fleeing China and seeking asylum.
Good thing that guy doesn't have any bias or anything. Not like he didn't just wander right by the SWAT guy "having a nice chat". Nothing could possibly be intimidating about a police officer in a SWAT jacket dropping by your store. No siree.
There's action on criminal justice reform. It mostly is on the state level at the moment.
Yup, the US doesn't have a pure history or present. But it doesn't approach China's open and systematic repression of dissent, and you're well into whataboutism territory at this point.
Right, the terrorists that US and Saudis have been funding to do terrorist attacks in China. These are your friends seeking asylum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Juma_Tayir
Did you as an American just criticize China for having police that's too militarized? Amazing levels of cognitive dissonance here. 😂
The reason you think that is because your propagandist tell this. You have zero actual knowledge of China. It's a country you've never been to, you don't know people living there, only things you know about this country about this country come the media you consume. The same media that constantly lies about everything.
And don't deflect with your whataboutism bullshit from the fact that you ignore the same kind of crimes happening in your own country that you accuse China off. These are far better documented and have far more evidence for them than the straws you're grasping at. If you actually cared about these things then you'd be denouncing your own country. Instead, you're just looking for ways to justify your chauvinism.
In objective terms your country is responsible for far worse systemic repression than anything observed in China. The enormous prison population alone is a clear example of that. US imprisons far more people per capita than China does. And if we include all the horrors your nightmarish empire is responsible for around the world then you have no leg to stand on accusing any other country.
People in China see their lives improve each and every decade, while people in US are having their lives destroyed by the oligarchs. If you cared about actual tangible freedoms, then you'd care about freedom to have housing, healthcare, education, and jobs. Freedom to live a life free from want.
Please do explain to me how those 200 people in Thailand have anything to do with Juma Tayir. Or is collective punishment in vogue again?
I've criticized the American police as being too militarized and unaccountable. Doesn't mean that I can't criticize China for using its police to intimidate its people.
I criticize my country. I want it to improve. I've never, ever seen you criticize China. Not once.
I assume you're being intentionally obtuse. I provided an example of the kinds of people we're talking about here. You can read the book by an ex CIA asset that I linked in this thread earlier that details how CIA has been training these extremists with the intent of destabilizing China. Incidentally, this is exactly the same playbook US used with mujahideen in Afghanistan. You guys aren't very creative.
Difference is that we have plenty of tangible evidence for what US does.
I have yet to have a single conversation with you where you actually criticize US or accept any criticism of it. What you do without fail is whitewash the crimes of your country.
Uh... that article. The one I linked from Time where it's talking about fleeing people. One group of 200 Uyghurs was deported back to China at China's request. There's nothing I can see about them having the least bit to do with the assassination of Juma Tayir, besides a shared ethnicity.
As I said, it's the consequence of an open society where we are allowed to discuss our flaws. The best disinfectant is sunlight, and in China there is no sunlight allowed.
Then you haven't been paying attention. Or perhaps I just am not always agreeing with the criticism that you want me to agree with? I'm not obligated to agree with your every complaint.
You are being intentionally obtuse aren't you. I used the wiki link to give an example of the types of people China is concerned about. Since you claim that you have no problems acknowledging problems with your country, it's a good time for you to show that by acknowledging that US has been sponsoring terrorists in China as well as many other countries.
I'm trying to imagine the mental gymnastics one has to go through to call a society with one of the highest incarceration rates in the world open. Do you even listen to yourself?
Your country literally runs on slave labor, and none of you even give a shit about that. Clearly there isn't enough disinfectant in this universe for you people.
Oh I have very much been paying attention. Just in this thread alone you keep calling your despotic regime an open society. In previous threads you whitewashed US involvement in Ukraine and Afghanistan, danced around the insane nuclear posture your regime has, and tried to argue that it's not an oligarchy.
You don't acknowledge a single wrong doing your regime does and praise it as some sort of free and open society which it's demonstrably not. If you held your own country to the same standards as China you'd see that China is a far better and saner society than US could ever hope to be.
Have you considered that perhaps I too disagree with the criticisms of China you want me to agree with? I’m not obligated to agree with your every complaint.