this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. A showerthought should offer a unique perspective on an ordinary part of life.

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Art by smbc-comics

Consciousness is often said to disappear in deep, dreamless sleep. We argue that this assumption is oversimplified. Unless dreamless sleep is defined as unconscious from the outset there are good empirical and theoretical reasons for saying that a range of different types of sleep experience, some of which are distinct from dreaming, can occur in all stages of sleep.

Pubmed Articles

Does Consciousness Disappear in Dreamless Sleep?

Sciencealert Article We Were Wrong About Consciousness Disappearing in Dreamless Sleep, Say Scientists

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[–] LanternEverywhere@kbin.social 200 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Sleep is NOTHING like death. You're still experiencing lots of stuff, you still very much have a sense of self, you're still thinking things, your brain is still processing lots of information.

General anesthesia - now THAT is a real close period to what being dead is.

[–] Manifish_Destiny@lemmy.world 116 points 1 year ago

You sound a lot like a guy who isn't dead. Not sure if I should trust your opinion.

[–] Lorindol@sopuli.xyz 73 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I've had general anesthesia, it was just like falling into a deep, dreamless sleep.

If death is like that, then there's absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

[–] Vigge93@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago

Probably is. If they gave you a little too much anesthesia so you didn't wake up, you would probably drift off the same, and then just not wake up.

[–] TrustingZebra@lemmy.one 28 points 1 year ago

It's not sleeping I'm worried about, it's not waking up.

[–] Ultraviolet@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've also been dead for 13.8 billion years before I was born, and I didn't mind it then.

[–] Rambi@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

But that has already happened, of course you don't fear something that has already occurred. People only fear what is yet to occur

[–] thonofpy@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I do mind now. I'm quite bummed out about missing all the fun of the 20th century. And never getting to breathe truly clean air. Or having the athlete body of a gatherer. Messing around in trees with feet that can actually grip something.

[–] BastingChemina 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

For me when I had anesthesia I quickly closed my eyes with the surgeon talking, when I opened my eyes the surgeon was still talking so I was wondering when the surgery would start.

Of course when I opened my eyes it was 5 hours later and after the surgery but it took me a while to realized that.

[–] PixxlMan@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

It's pretty cool that you could just continue your thought after basically pausing your brain for five hours. Kind of like hibernation for a pc I guess.

[–] IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Except the agonizing pain which precedes death

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Agent641@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

Saying "you too" to the waiter after he says "enjoy your meal sir"

[–] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If it's death from too much anaesthesia (or, apparently, freezing), there is none.

[–] insomniac@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is there a way to actually know that?

[–] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

Is there a way to actually know anything?

[–] PixxlMan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

I'm sure you could measure brain activity during death to know for sure (but idk under what conditions you'd be able to do that though). It doesn't really make any sense to me that dying, unless due to some painful external cause, would be painful though. Especially under anesthesia or similar.

[–] SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I’ve had general anesthesia, it was just like falling into a deep, dreamless sleep.

What if anesthesia actually just blocks your memories and physical reactions, but you actually experience everything that happens to you in absolute terror?

[–] CeeBee@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What if anesthesia actually just blocks your memories and physical reactions, but you actually experience everything that happens to you in absolute terror?

Latest studies with FMRIs and other tools have found that general anesthesia decouples the sections of the brain from each other. All the various parts of the brain stop communicating. It's an entities different state than sleep based on the brain activity.

Normally when we have various stimuli or are asleep, neural activity "flows" around from one section to the other. When under general anesthesia those flows are isolated and don't connect to other sections of the brain.

This has actually given us a huge clue as to where consciousness comes from and what makes it a thing.

It also helps explain why going under is just lights out and no drama or anything. It's like an off switch for the "person".

[–] kevinbacon@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Thats exactly what some do, depends on the anesthetic, but it doesn't matter because if a memory never forms it may as well not have happened.

[–] SpaceCadet@feddit.nl 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

if a memory never forms it may as well not have happened

That is an interesting philosophical question.

If suffering is not remembered, was there even suffering? And if there was, does it matter? I can think of a few counterexamples of that, for example: a killer who tortures his victim before killing them.

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Uhh, yes and yes? What's stopping a rapist from anesthesizing their victims before the act and using the fact that they did as an excuse to get off charges under your logic?

[–] jarfil@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Physical abuse tends to leave some physical consequences. You'd have to come up with an example where there would be neither physical not psychological consequences... but even getting anesthesized against one's will is already a consequence.

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[–] echodot@feddit.uk 1 points 1 year ago

Presumably in your scenario the victim remembers the torture though.

In the case of general anaesthetic the memory is effectively considered to be deleted in real time. On its way through the brain it ceases to exist so it never reaches the conscious mind.

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[–] NikkiDimes@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I had to be put under a few years ago to extract wisdom teeth and I wouldn't say I was 100% gone. I remember seeing the light through my eyelids, hearing muffled unintelligible voices, and feeling mild tension as they worked in my mouth, jostling my head around. No pain, but notable light sensations. It also felt like it was over in a minute for an hour and a half procedure. Was definitely a wild experience, but certainly no terror remembered, thankfully.

[–] PixxlMan@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm genuinely surprised that the idea that something bad might happen to you when you're dead or that it could be painful etc is anywhere near as prevalent as it is. To me, that makes absolutely no sense. Of course dying might be painful... But death? Once you brain no longer works? Feels obvious to me that you won't feel, well, anything. The thing that frightens me about death wouldn't be the experience of being dead, but rather not being able to do any more things and not existing anymore.

[–] Anamnesis@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

This reasoning goes all the way back to Epicurus. With regard to your latter points, Epicurus thought they were also solved by being dead. For someone to miss out on something, they have to exist in the first place. No person, no missing out. And for not existing to be bad, a person must be around to be upset about it.

[–] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think that most people aren't afraid of death itself. It's more the suffering to get there.

[–] ezures@lemmy.wtf 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The most scary stuff is just not doing or experiencing anything after death, at least for me. (Probably the biggest fomo on earth)

[–] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Life is a series of missed opportunities. When you choose to do something, you miss out on a multitude of other options. That is fine.

But I get the FOMO, it took me a few years of active mindfulness to reign it in.

[–] zeppo@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What’s hard for me to accept is the idea of never waking up. It seems like it has to end sometime.

[–] jdsquared@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

See for me I'm not sure why that's hard to accept. I think I first heard it from Alan Watts, that there were billions of years of space before I was conscious, so why am I afraid of billions of years of nothing after I'm gone?

Not having something in the first place and losing something you have are two different things. It's like saying to someone who just lost their partner "don't feel bad, for the first n years of your life you didn't have a partner and you were fine"

Additionally, it's not billions of years of nothing. It's an eternity of nothing. Billions of years may as well be the blink of an eye relative to eternity.

God, I'm getting anxious just talking about it.

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[–] Kodemystic@lemmy.kodemystic.dev 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But isn't there a fear anyway? Because its forever. Also not seeing loved ones ever again. Not enjoying the nice things ever again.

[–] jarfil@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Add constant pain, and that's what I call life.

[–] newIdentity@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well except Ketamine and some other substances that are used in anesthesia.

[–] LanternEverywhere@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's not general anesthesia, that's like twilight anesthesia or some other term like that.

[–] Telodzrum@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Conscious sedation is the term of art. Fentanyl and versed are commonly used for this tour of sedation.

[–] Anamnesis@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

When I'm asleep I'm not experiencing shit. Close eyes, moment of black, awake again the next day.

[–] grozzle@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is not the normal human experience. Check if you're a robot?

[–] bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 year ago

My diagnostics said "all systems normal" so that can't be it

[–] samus12345@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You just don't remember your dreams.

[–] Anamnesis@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

That's probably true. I have definitely had some dreams. But maybe only fifty over thirty-seven years.