this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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Honestly I'm starting to hate this narrative
For one, by far the most polluting companies are state owned coal companies in China and India. Then other state owned fossil fuel companies and then private fossil fuel companies.
So all those companies are just power generation. So it's not like they can just stop, people need the electricity.
And it's not like nothing is being done either. Like by far the biggest polluter is China's coal industry, making up 25% of global emissions, but China is also THE global leader on clean energy investment. They are currently building more nuclear power plants than the entire rest of the world has, they are making the biggest most powerfull wind turbines in the world, etc.
And if people would stop consuming cheap, disposable shite from China, then they wouldn't use so much electricity, so would burn less coal and also you wouldn't make a bunch of shit that's just going to end up in a landfill.
It's a multifaceted issue, but don't kid yourself
http://amp.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/jul/10/100-fossil-fuel-companies-investors-responsible-71-global-emissions-cdp-study-climate-change.
China weighs in at 14.5% for coal. Another 1-point-some-odd for their Petro Chem. The issue is that there are a lot of companies that make up the remainder.
Demand definitely plays a role in all of this, but I don't think pushing green initiatives is a bad thing from the consumers and one of the only ways we can encourage these companies to do their part
https://mander.xyz/comment/15166141
I'll refer to this comment where I showed why the article quoted here is very missleading.
It’s possible there’s a very specific tinge of racism and/or jingoism present in the comment previous to yours.
Multinational companies are to blame, not just India and China.
Really? I didn't see the racist overtones you did apparently. I read that as 'China is the largest pollution source, but only because of X Y and Z, and they're doing more to mitigate it than anyone else'.
I hear your point there, you’re not wrong, but it does lay the blame at their feet then sort of back away from the stance.
The fact is, most people won’t read it all. They’re just going to see “blame India and China!”
“Phew, at least I’m off the hook.”
I don’t even like to admit the idea of the above but based on the last month (and let’s face it, very long time before that), people are willing to jump to all sorts of conclusions.
Hell, maybe I did about it sounding racist! But I don’t know the intent behind every message I read. I’m just feeling very skeptical and cautious.
You make some very good points. Being sceptical and cautious are important skills to have in this modern world :/
Power companies in Georgia, US are building more coal power plants. Consumers in Georgia, US don't have a lot of choice in how the electricity they can buy is produced.
What kind of politicians are people voting for at the state level in GA? Separately, they're also blowing ass loads of money on nuclear.
Why are the people not on the hook for electricity usage but they are for cheap crap? The corporations reselling the cheap crap are far more culpable. The problem is still capitalism.
Okay, we've identified the problem is capitalism. Now what? Are you not at fault when you buy cheap crap from China you don't need or take your car somewhere you could have walked, because the problem is capitalism?
When crops are failing due to drought and kids are starving to death is pointing the finger at capitalism going to save them?
Your logic: "We've identified the problem is capitalism. Stop pointing at it and start pointing at something else, that'll solve it!"
Now we organise to abolish capitalism in historically achievable ways, such as unionisation of workers, creation of socialist and dual power structures, and the eventual revolution.
Nope, but nice try trying to strawman me.
I'm talking about taking actual individual action to stop the problem instead of merely pointing fingers.
Okay, so we've unionised the workers, how does that stop oil companies polution?
We have socialist dual power structures, how does that stop fossil fuel emissions?
We have """the revolution""" does that magically make fossil fuels go away?
My point is you can blame capitalism all you like, but at the very least in the short/medium term if we want to actually do something about climate change we need to change how we behave. As even under a socialist or communist system people will still use electricity, that will still be generated by fossil fuels.and people will still ship things in from other countries. And good luck pushing socialism in any major western country right now.
No, but it's closer than all of us pointing it at ourselves and each other.
I agree so very much.
People around me fly on holidays by plane like two, three times a year, still eat meat, shower twice a day and buy shit they don't need from Amazon, because they can. This needs to stop! Will it save us? Of course not, but who else is going to stop the global suicide machine? Trump? The fossil destroyers? Do you want to protest another 70 years or go blow up a pipeline?
We are billions, we have the power of "No, thanks, I don't want that" every fucking day but the endless consumption of stuff is too tempting. Instead, we sit at home, comfortably warm, well fed and lonely, in front of our seethrough plexiglas RGB LED computers and point fingers at corporations that are exactly as greedy, selfish and irresponsible as every single one of us.
NO THANKS! This could be the easiest global movement, no violence, no riots, yet corporations would be powerless. But you'd need to change, and you don't want that.
Edit: If you downvote, please tell me where I'm wrong and what's your counter-proposal in this actual situation right now.
Where you are wrong is that the majority of humans don't have access to those luxuries of choice since around 50% of the world is still below the extreme poverty level. Where else you're wrong is people like me that have solar panels, and electric transportation and access to mass transit that I use regularly. We also don't have much of a choice, because we don't make the markets those companies do.
Those companies are the only ones that have a choice because they control so much market share that no one else has enough power to make a change.
I already eliminated my carbon footprint, and it hasn't done shit, because Starbucks has their own private jet that the CEO is using 3 times a week to fly between San Francisco and Seattle, because fuck the plebes.
The only solution I see at this point is mass protest and starting to assassinate CEOs, shareholders, and boards of directors, in self defense.
9% of the global population is in extreme poverty not 50%
Thank you. So many people are still living with data from 1970 in their heads
Historically, terrorism isn't really a good way towards the elimination of capitalism. The creation of strong unions linked to communist parties (not in the "liberal democracy" sense of party, but in the communist sense) is a historically more proven way to fight against capitalist power structures. Unionise, create local dual power structures and mutual aid, join a militant communist party.
The point is that if everyone did what you (and I) do, we'd actually get somewhere. Seems like we're in the minority though, unfortunately. That doesn't make the person you replied to wrong, it just means most people continue to just blindly consume, and when they can't consume as much as they want they blindly vote for asswipes promising them even more. That's the cultural problem at the heart of this all. I'm running out of individual actions I can do too, but that doesn't mean those were not helpful.
People aren't blindly consuming though, they're consuming mostly as a necessity, without much choice in the impact of what they consume. Us down here at the bottom of the class hierarchy don't have a lot of wiggle room. In general, the lower and middle classes much more rarely consume for pleasure, but even still, why shouldn't I get to take a plane for vacation once or twice a year, sucking the farts of the 300 other peasants in the economy class seats, while CEOs take single-passenger trips in their private jets every day? Do you see how that's frustrating? My footprint is already incredibly low because on top of just not consuming all that much in the first place (compared to a billionaire), I do try to be as responsible as I reasonably can. Billionaires aren't even trying.
I think the big point is, it would be magnitudes easier to get the 100 richest people to lower their carbon footprint than the 1 billion poorest (do you understand how monstrously difficult it is to convince 1 billion, or even 1 million people to work towards some common goal?), and it would probably have a bigger impact on the environment to boot. I'm getting tired of people continuing to advocate for individual action when actions by billionaires would be so much more impactful, for so much less sacrifice on their part. Work smarter, not harder, you know?
Obviously, the best solution is to do both, to tackle the problem from both sides. But in my personal opinion, I think we should start with the billionaires and see where that gets us first. They owe us at least that much.
We're talking about two different groups of people here. The working class trying to survive get a pass on individual actions because they have no means. They should probably vote and organize and get engaged to better their outcomes.
I'm talking about the millions of people that have the means, but just don't because they quite literally don't care. I see them every day. It's the millions of people buying new $60k trucks and SUVs every few years, and large suburban homes, and who have trash cans that are 5x the size of mine that still can't contain their mindless shopping detritus, and spend tons of money on trendy home furnishings but "don't think solar makes sense" or don't bother trying literally anything that reduces carbon.
I'm saying that giving millions of these people a pass because a billionaire is worse isn't helpful, and expecting these folks to magically work towards sustainable collective action when they spend their entire lives living the opposite of sustainability is simply not going to work. If you can convince neighbors to get heat pumps solar and give them a test ride on your ebike and show them how easy it is to live without gas you can probably get them to vote for someone that is focused on the climate. Sitting around you and your neighbors matching F150s blaming China and Bezos and speaking in abstract terms about "collective action" seems less effective to me.
Sorry for the rant!
I'm not giving them a pass. I do my part, and I encourage others to do theirs. It's billionaires who are getting a pass. There's next to no consequence for large scale damage to the environment, if you're rich enough.
I one hundred percent agree, it's a tall task to get that undereducated, uncaring group to think about the environment.
What is a shorter task, is passing taxes, policies, and other financial incentives to make billionaires pay for the damage they're doing. Which in all likelihood, will come in the form of not offering all those horribly irresponsible products. Kills two birds with one stone.
Yes, there is a difference between the elite and the lower class, but it's only in resources and opportunities. If both sides switched positions the lower class people would go for exactly the same fun as the elite is having right know. Because that's the way we are born and raised, greedy and selfish. Purging a couple of assholes and replacing them with fresh soon-to-be assholes won't solve this. Our mindset needs to change. We need to agree on what is important, what is enough and what's obscene.
That may be how you were raised, but most of us were taught sandbox rules. You don't just grab everything you can because it won't be there tomorrow, you share or else.
Then it seems to me that the real problem is the capacity for damage that being a billionaire grants you, not the people involved. Maybe we need to start looking at ways to limit the damage billionaires can do, instead of focusing so hard on changing the behavior of the masses.
I'm not suggesting a purge, I'm suggesting we change the behavior of the billionaire class. That can be achieved with taxes, policy, and financial incentives just as easily as with violence (probably easier tbh).
Dawg, we've been trying to change the mindset since (at least*) the 90s, and it's just not enough. You and I can reuse our sustainably sourced reusable hemp shopping bags all we want, reduce our consumption all we want, recycle all we want, it doesn't change the fact that Kroger is shipping in produce from half a planet away on a daily basis. We need to go further, and make the upper class take their share of responsibility for the damage they do to the environment.
Agreeing on what's enough is hard, but agreeing on what's obscene is much much easier, and I think it's safe to say that nearly every billionaire in the world exceeds what we can agree is obscene. That's a much easier problem to solve, one we have the tools to solve now. Let's tackle that first, while we work through the harder problem of figuring out what's enough.
I like this debate, yet it's getting long and complex, this would be better face to face. That's why I'm picking only one topic:
One hemp bag needs to be used +1000 times to replace a thousand plastic bags in co2 emissions (they degrade, so at least they don't kill sea animals, though). I have like 50 of them at home (bought none of them). Recycling is a lie as well, most stuff is still useless.
My point is: People are all for saving the planet as long as it's as easy as buying a different or even a new product. People love to consume. But we won't save anything with this mentality. We need to go NO THANKS! and stop habits that really affect us. Kroger shipping produce is not the problem, look at the first graph here, the stuff millions eat daily is. So, no more flying, no more meat, no more Amazon, we need to ostracize this behavior. Clean energy, public transport, EV, you money at an ethical bank is great if you can afford it and will get us a long way.
Again: I know this won't save us and I'm all for canceling fossil destroyers, holding billionaires accountable and putting CEOs in jail. But it's much easier to change yourself than to change Tylor Swift.
poore-nemecek can't be trusted to be the basis of my dietary decisions. it probably can't even be trusted to have understood it's own source data.
Brother, a huge chunk of people outside of Europe can't do things like choose cleaner energy sources, choose to use public transportation, choose to live car free, choose to eat local produce, or choose to do any of those things in the articles you listed, because those choices do not exist for them. I don't have access to local produce except a few weekends in the summer. My city doesn't have functional public transportation. My apartment doesn't let me choose where I get my energy from, and even if it did, there probably wouldn't be a clean energy option in my state. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if more coal power plants were being built, due to lobbying and politicians that I voted against. Don't you see how it's frustrating when you say that these individual actions need to be the focus when it's impossible for a ton of people to take those actions?
Well, if you can't then don't!
No meat, no planes and no unnecessary Amazon purchases still applies. Be the change you want to see in the world. Or are just looking for an excuse like the billionaires and everyone else?
I agree again.
I don't know about you guys but Id rather have a habitable planet with breathable air than electricity.
It sickens me how convenience is valued over everything else.
People in hospitals will die without that electricity. You can be all sickened and uppity on your electronic device if you want, but the only realistic solution is replacing infrastructure.
People are already dying from the effects of climate change so I dont understand the point you are trying to make
You are asking people to let Gam Gam die so some random person they'll never meet will live. "Just stop" is never. going. to. happen. Even the pockets of humanity left after the bulk of climate change will continue high energy use per capita.
The only realistic solution is greener energy.
Gam Gam's life shouldn't be worth more than "some random person"
If I ever need to pick who lives between a family member and you, dear internet stranger, I wouldn't even bother going to your funeral.
I hate the narrative too. Just people avoiding responsibility and complaining instead of doing what they can and should.
Obviously our individual actions matter.
Obviously they should and do, but pretending the average human creates anything compared to oil and gas companies, coal plants, big tech, etc is boot-lickingly ludicrous
My point is, why do you think those oil and gas companies or big tech exist? Because there is a market for it because of consumer behaviour.
A profitable oil company is never going to just close itself down for the sake of morals. And even if they did, a different oil company is just going to take over their market share.
The only way we stop oil companies is by making them unprofitable, either through voting for legislators that will tax them or sanction them, or by taking away their demand.
And while your individual demand is tiny, the same as you single individual vote in an election. It won't have an affect by itself, but if lots of people band together we can make change.
And the first step of that is acknowledging it.
These companies exist and pollute because people are buying what they sell.
No. They exist because people buy what they sell. They pollute because they lack meaningful regulations on their practices.
If nobody buys from a polluting company, they die. Or adapt, but usually they die.
Be responsible for your own actions.
And everyone knows that there is always another option. There are no monopolies in this or any country and there's always an alternative to your electricity, your food, etc. It must be so nice for you to live in a world with such a plethora of choice!
My mate whinge all day about bad companies ruining the planet and drinks that Danone smart water bullshit.
Well soon he will be smart enough to stop drinking it.
Yeah, same people that get stressed about climate change then fly on jets without even considering the 100 liters/hour the plane burns to fly them and their luggage.