this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
256 points (98.5% liked)
Climate - truthful information about climate, related activism and politics.
5192 readers
799 users here now
Discussion of climate, how it is changing, activism around that, the politics, and the energy systems change we need in order to stabilize things.
As a starting point, the burning of fossil fuels, and to a lesser extent deforestation and release of methane are responsible for the warming in recent decades:
How much each change to the atmosphere has warmed the world:
Recommended actions to cut greenhouse gas emissions in the near future:
Anti-science, inactivism, and unsupported conspiracy theories are not ok here.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Even if you are right I'll take doing the right thing for the wrong reasons over the fucking disappointment and self destruction coming from the United States.
Doesn't matter how you spin it, China is objectively better for the world right now.
You can feel morally superior all the way to societal collapse
Tbh, doesn't feel good pinning hopes on China, but I'll take what I can get at this point.
You're right in that the whole drill-baby-drill thing is utter self-destruction which may still work passably over the course of the next four years but not beyond. The IRA right now is solid industrial policy and I wish us Europeans were competing. (Wild guess though, the repeal of the IRA will go much like the repeal of the ACA last time around.)
However, my point is that China is in a phase where it's doing more with more, and its motivation is such that that will stay that way. The only reason Chinese emissions are stagnating right now is that their economy is faltering. At this point, the Jevons paradox is simply eating their renewable power/electric car/... gains. Granted, that is preferable to them continuing to buy ever more fossil-fueled cars.
The motivation for producing this technology will, to a degree, determine the outcome: Solar panels off Temu, delivered to your doorstep using a fossil-fueled plane are a thing that exists.
What happens when the importing blocs (US and EU) rethink their climate policy (because right-wing morons think that's a good idea)? Chinese products will adapt quickly.
lol
ok educate me. On the topic of climate in which ways has (or will) the United States be better? I'd appreciate the optimistic perspective.
Does the argument extend beyond China bad?
When the people in China can go outside in public without wearing filtration masks I'll consider start taking their environmental approaches more seriously.
What you're bringing up, even if true, would be explained equally well by population density.
China's per capita emissions are lower than the US and Canada https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/
They're also innovating and leading in solar technology and cheap EVs.
You're pointing at subjective and anecdotal "evidence" where are your hard stats?
What century are you from? The localized pollution problems you're referring to have been resolved. I know you won't trust any source anyone here provides, so go ahead and look it up. Just because you got used to your government being useless and slow, doesn't mean other governments are the same.
here, educate yourself: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20696000-the-hundred-year-marathon
when your argument is "china good", then "china bad" absolutely is valid rebuttal.
China's per capita carbon emissions are lower than the United States and Canada https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-per-capita/
oh, cool. manipulation by carefully selecting statistisc that will support my theory 😂
first, there is a lot more to "being good/better for the world" than co2 emissions per capita.
with that out of hand, lets look at few others, shall we?
https://ourworldindata.org/co2/country/china
How is it appropriate to make comparisons between nations without normalizing for the population?
Frankly, accusing me of manipulation makes me no longer care what you have to say. You can fuck off.
when you have big part of country that is rural and don't participate in generating the emissions and profiting from them, then including them in the total count to artificially decrease final per capita number is just manipulation.
but my point here was you carefully selected one graph and presented it without context to support incorrect conclusion. but you know that, right?
so you have no rebuttal to graphs i showed you, so you are suddenly not talking to me. that's understandable, whatever exit strategy works for you, clown...
You're here being an asshole with a chip on your shoulder so I'm giving you the same energy. Comparing the total output of a 2 billion pop nation with a nation 20% of that size is a pretty dumb way to compare statistics and the progress of a country's green transition.
I can't give you a stats curriculum on lemmy when you are also being a huge dick.
can you even read?
did you get lost? I'm done with you
i know. when facts are against you, all you can do is shout loudly while you are leaving. bon voyage.
dude you're such a huge asshole. USA! USA! USA! keep building multi-decade lifespan LNG shipping infrastructure for your "bridge fuel" and suppressing cheap green energy.
Keep electing leaders paid for by fossil fuel companies
USA! USA! #1
the other party is such an asshole! they presented facts! how dare they?!?!?!?
you should take deep breath, this mental breakdown can't be good for you.
True I should thank you for teaching me that per capita statistics are useless for comparing nations.
You should go public with this information
any single piece of statistic presented without context can be used to manipulate, as you did in this case, knowingly or not.
when you have big part of country that is rural and don’t participate in generating the emissions and profiting from them, then including them in the total count to artificially decrease final per capita number is just manipulation.
these people living in rural areas will ultimately also want to participate in the booming economy, it is just a matter of time. so it is better to look at trends rather than some number fixed in time. and how does the trend look like?
oh don't worry, it is public information, they teach it in schools.
A big portion of every country is rural, you're not making the case you think you're making.
Let's look at other differences: China is still largely a manufacturing economy whereas the United States is a service economy.
They've built more rail transit in recent years than the United States has even attempted.
Their EV market share is significantly higher.
Seems the only thing you learned in school is blind nationalism
no, big portion of every country is not rural.
also note we are not talking about rural in a sense of geography. we are talking about rural in a sense of what we in europe or us would call living in a medieval conditions.
for example, there is 231 registered cars in china compared to 850 in us.
in 2000, 57% of chinese had access to clean drinking water and toilet. by 2020 that number rose to respectable 92%.
now when these people finally have access to toilet, they will want a car and maybe a roof over their head that is made out of concrete instead of bamboo.
lets see how it will affect their emissions per capita.
and will be for some time, before their citizens will get to western living standard, by which time their emissions will be somewhere else than they are today.
well, united states have 1 km of railways per 1522 people, compared to chinese 8865, so it is easy to see why one of them may be in bigger rush to build more.
here is kinda interesting and unfortunate that according to table historical peek for us was 400k km of tracks in 1917, which is about 100% more than they have now, so, probably thanks to the car culture, they let lot of them rot.
yes, they do better here. it is the nature of the beast, if country has almost no cars and is getting richer, it is only logical that some of the new cars will be electrical, compared to country where people already have a car and often not so much disposable income to buy new car when the old one is still working, plus there is of course some inertia.
it is 38% / 23% / 9.5% market share of newly bought cars for china/eu/us.
that also means that 62% of cars sold in china is not electric. and 72% of electricity for these ev cars comes from non-renewable sources.
they are missing about 900 million cars to get to same car penetration as us. so lets wait until they get there and see what it does with their emissions 😂
of course. because why else would someone disagree with your genius? i am not an american, as you probably think, you clown.
Your thesis is that eventually Chinese will live extravagant lifestyles like the US and all own similar amounts of gas cars per household because that's how the US developed.
Never mind that China is actively electrifying and building incredible amounts of public transit so it's more likely their economy will scale in a green way as people live more urban lifestyles, closer to what you'd see in Europe and even beyond that due to electric rail and population density.
Yes if China was like 2 billion Americans you'd have a point I guess.
Do you have any real sources, like scientific sources, anything written by someone not intending to get paid massive amounts for their work?
well hello there, chinese intelligence officer.
we in the western civilization are usually getting paid for our work and don't consider that as discreditation of said work. also, the author of the book, is, among others, researcher at Harvard, so he is the literal scientist.
Michael Pillsbury is the director of the Center on Chinese Strategy at the Hudson Institute and has served in presidential administrations from Richard Nixon to Barack Obama. Educated at Stanford and Columbia Universities, he is a former analyst at the RAND Corporation and research fellow at Harvard and has served in senior positions in the Defense Department and on the staff of four U.S. Senate committees. He is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the International Institute for Strategic Studies. He lives in Washington, D.C.
How did treating all dissent as Russian/Chinese bots/trolls work out this election? Not very well. Because they mostly don't exist.
Buddy is a Western Patriot fighting the good fight. Go get em tiger, your emotional zeal is steadfast in the face of data and logic. America is truly amazing and the best at climate. You caught a vuvuzelan spy working for Xi.