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if you're not free to become poor, homeless, and starving, are you really free? (slrpnk.net)

submitted 4 months ago by stabby_cicada to c/memes

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[–] LibertyLizard 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

Thanks for sharing firsthand knowledge. Sounds like there were a lot of problems which isn’t surprising but at least compared to the US with our extreme numbers of homeless I’m still not sure which is better.

Of course, an ideal system would provide quality housing to everyone but I don’t know of such a system.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Well the name of the game in the west is "things are better than "elsewhere" as long as you don't fall through the cracks!"

The reality is the cracks are pretty fucking wide now.

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

Capitalism contatantly strives to be as slightly better than the opposition as possible. This doesn’t go well when it’s the only game in town.

[–] TAG@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

If you are ultra rich or ultra poor, the Soviet system is better. If you are lower, middle, or upper working class, the US system is better.

Source: I was born to a family of highly educated professionals in Russia during the late-USSR period, later moved to the US where we were working poor. The US was heaven on earth in comparison.

[–] LibertyLizard 3 points 4 months ago

What was worse about the USSR housing? Anything beyond what was mentioned above?

[–] EfreetSK@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yes, I guess that's up to a debate which one is better (or none of them).

I'd say if we imagine housing as a scale from 0 to 100 where 0 means you're homeless and 100 means you're living in a mansion

The US way sounds like you're using the whole scale - you've quite a lot of homeless people, but also quite a lot of people living in mansions. Some people are above average, some are bellow awerage and so on.
The soviet way is like if you'd shrink the scale to 30 to 50. You have no homeless people but also no one is living in a mansion (well ... ). But also notice the best you can achieve in such system is average.

Which approach is better? I guess from "progress" point of view the US system is better. Theoretically if you're skilled and hard working, you can get above average and live better life. That's actually the reason why so many skilled and talented people fled the soviet union - in the west there was no "ceiling" for you. On the other hand, from humanity point of view though, the soviet system sounds much better - country caring about every single one of its citizens to have a place to live.

But I'd argue that maybe the 3rd way is best. Because well both Soviets and US are extremes. Soviets were ... well ... soviets. It's like "left" on steroids. Also it failed - I mean if it was such a paradise on earth, why were so many people fleeing it.

But US is also an extreme - you're like a capitalist lunapark. Even other countries from west are often horrified how you take care of people (or rather not care)

But there is some middle ground between these - you can have a system with focus on social issues but also not go crazy f.e. some scandinaviam countries

[–] amanda@aggregatet.org 3 points 4 months ago

Scandi here, sorry to tell you our system also sucks. It has almost exactly all the problems of the soviet system (queues, poor quality, corruption) AND the American system (inequality, horrible if you’re poor, inefficient focus on luxury production), but in moderation. You can call it better (I would, or I’d have moved), but it still sucks. You need a system that’s fair, transparent, efficient, and provides enough.

We have the capacity to do that, but I don’t think it can be combined with capitalism. Capitalism eats everything around it (and inside it). It cannot be negotiated with, except for at most a lifetime in exceptional circumstances, usually less.

By the way, a unique problem with social democracy is that capitalist interests have a huge incentive and ability to commandeer whatever shit implementation of democracy you have to extract profits. If you have centralised social services (housing, healthcare) they’re very very vulnerable to takeover, selling our, deregulation where private entities can cream the market and leave the difficult cases to the publicly funded variants etc etc.

Another issue is the EU, which demands universal market liberalism. The Swedish housing system with universal public housing as opposed to social housing for the poor was explicitly fucked by this after a EU court ruling demanding they operate their rental flats like profit-driven companies, which of course completely destroyed their ability to provide the service they’re designed to provide.