I'll happily pick a side as a kid who grew up in a house constantly full of smoke and a parent who's a total mess at least partially because of this. Good. It's about time some serious steps were taken. Not to mention the effects of second hand smoke.
You're parent(s) not having the sense to go outside and stay away from you while smoking shouldn't impact my ability to smoke alone.
I’m ideologically opposed to anything that prevents an adult from doing what they want to their own body. That said, we need to do a better job keeping children off of those substances (and all the other ones that aren’t legal for adults, but should be)
( Exception for things like antibiotics, which endanger everyone else if you abuse them. Other drugs should be regulated like alcohol : no sale to minors, restrictions on activities like driving when under the influence. Maybe the age should also be 21 or 25 instead of 18 )
On the other hand, a complete ban on smoking in public spaces could be helpful ? I’m not certain if it has been tried 🤷🏻♀️
South Africa was trying this when I moved away about 15 years ago. If you wanted to smoke you had to sit in separate closed off area in restaurants (for example).
~~No idea what the ultimate outcome of that was though.~~
Edit: According to smokefreeworld.org:
The adult smoking rate declined from 27.1 percent in 2000 to 18.2 percent in 2012
I’m ideologically opposed to anything that prevents an adult from doing what they want to their own body.
A couple other comments seem to imply this a full-blown prohibition as well. To be clear, my interpretation is that this is not a total prohibition. From the article:
The government is set to introduce a historic new law to stop children who turn 14 this year or younger from ever legally being sold cigarettes in England, in a bid to create the first ‘smokefree generation’.
So IIUC, there is no possession or consumption offense, and anyone at any age can grow their own or import¹ it. They’re just making it inconvenient to acquire by controlling commerce. That inconvenience will certainly add to the cool factor of kids who become the resourceful hookup.
¹ I suppose they will be able to carry it into the country, but probably legit mail order shops will be controlled. Not sure.
On the other hand, a complete ban on smoking in public spaces could be helpful ? I’m not certain if it has been tried
IIRC, the smoking ban in restaurants and bars started in CA or NY, then swept around the world from there. Then NY supposedly banned smoking near outdoor bus stops or something. Not sure if that experiment spread.
That was my thought too. Ban it in public spaces so the rest of us don't have to breath that toxic shit, but if people want to spend money to kill themselves at home then let them. But don't cover their related health expenses.
I disagree about the health stuff, but I’m French, so I’ve always taken is as a given that we pay (almost) every healthcare expense through taxes. If you ask me, that’s just the cost of freedom 🤷🏻♀️
i think new zealand and australia tried
The intention is meritable. As usual, Tories misunderstand how to achieve the stated objective. They'll be creating a secondary market whereby those born before 2009 will supply cigarettes to those born after 2009... for a fee of course. Party of business and entrepreneurialship.
Also, drinking yourself into a stupor seems to be socially acceptable in the UK whilst the cost is much larger.
Cigarettes were already heavily taxed in the UK anyway. The relative share of smokers is much lower compared to places like France.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/smoking-rates-by-country
If the goal is to improve everyone's well-being, is this the best way to achieve it?
Until no one is left alive who can buy cigarettes. Or rather, until no one produces cigarettes on an industrial level because the narket is so small. Then they need to grow tobacco themselves and suffer without buckets of toxic shit put into commercial cigarettes.
I'm all for making drastic positive changes in our lifetimes, but a slow change is better than no change
The goal is have less smokers. Is your argument that there will be a secondary market booming in no time or that it wont affect that many people?
I don't live in the UK but I would not support this anywhere because making something banned makes people want to use it and creates a black market. I would absolutely support raising the minimum age you are allowed to consume it at. But not a complete ban.
What if we raise the minimum age by 1 year, each year
Isn't that the same thing, only making the cutoff 2006 instead of 2009?
Shh, don't tell anyone
Oh sorry haha
What is the minimum age there in the UK? Here in the United States, it's 18. And alcohol is 21. I would say raise that to at least 21 to match alcohol.
Vapes have pretty much taken over here in the UK. The vast majority of smokers are the older generation.
I've been to Spain twice in the past year and each time amazed at how many smokers there are still. These were the Spanish and Germans.
I grew up in a house with a smoker and would not want to do that at all ever. I'm okay with vaping, but I don't want anything to do with tobacco products at all. I just vape marijuana.
Didn't New Zealand try this and eventually walk it back?
A different government came in and cancelled it to fund tax cuts
I can kinda support raising the ages for drugs, alcohol and tobacco to 19, 21 or even 25. Major human brain development is still ongoing until about 25. Or perhaps restricting the quantity they can buy.
We already see car rental companies restricting rentals to those ages and insurance companies having higher risk premiums.
And I would also put limits on things like gambling and credit card debt for those ages. And yes, stop student loans in totality.
But the idea that we are going to ban 30 and 40 year olds from consuming cigarettes is just laughable.
I can kinda support raising the ages for drugs, alcohol and tobacco to 19, 21 or even 25. Major human brain development is still ongoing until about 25. Or perhaps restricting the quantity they can buy.
There was some research finding that people who use psychedelic mushrooms are made more psychologically flexible (open minded) for the rest of their life. But the caveat is that the permanent open mindedness effect only happens if the shrooms are consumed before age 35 -- presumably precisely because the brain still has significant neuroplasticity.
I will never understand how Lemmy squares cigarette prohibition but also full legalization of marijuana.
Smoking habits are vastly different between the two. THC has strong inhibiting effects so must people will usually smoke smaller quantities (often just a quarter of a gram) and will probably do it as a way of unwinding after work or share a joint with friends when they're hanging out. Nicotine on the other hand isn't inhibiting and if anything can give a little boost. Because of this someone can smoke a whole cigarette and go about their day at work. Often times taking multiple breaks during the work day. Tolerance also builds up very quickly and there are significantly stronger addictive effects which often leads to people smoking several cigarettes a day even when they aren't getting the effects while the practice of taking tolerance breaks is pretty common even with heavy weed smokers since there isn't any real withdrawal. Sure there are people that smoke multiple joints a day, but there are also people that smoke a pack or more of cigarettes a day and they're able to stay much more functional while doing so which means that there isn't the negative feedback you'd get from being stoned all the time.
All of that would hold true if both substances were equally toxic. However studies show that weed is far far less carcinogenic than tobacco. It's not healthy to smoke anything, but what you smoke and how much does matter.
So do we ban strong spirits and leave beer alone then too?
That's a more nuanced issue, but I will say that in the US and Europe to my knowledge there are often more restrictions on spirits than on wine and beer including where it can be sold and in Europe, the age at which it can be purchased. I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but that is a very significant portion of the world for an English language discussion.
Regardless, that comparison isn't quite right assuming we're talking about cigarettes being hard spirits and weed being beer. With hard spirits they're very harsh and in typical use they're poured in smaller amounts and diluted with mixers to bring them around the strength of a beer. Even when drank neat they're still served in smaller quantities and drank more slowly by most people.
On the other hand cigarettes are usually filtered which makes them smoother to smoke while weed is rarely filtered and people are much more likely to cough as an immediate reaction to smoking too much which also discourages smoking in excess.
The rhetoric seems clever, but it is based on very shaky logic. Smoking is a choice, I made it for years and eventually made the choice to stop. Banning the sale of tobacco also doesn't prevent smoking - it just prevents the government from taxing smoking. Just like weed, just like other drugs. We already have problems with unregulated vapes being sold to kids, surely this is only going to make that problem worse by driving even tobacco vape liquid sales underground?
The ban is on cigs not really vapes it seems (apart from the flavored ones that attract kids). In which case people are being steered toward vaping, which will likely do well in competing against black market cigs. If the goal is to keep kids off the worst of the worst, focusing on cig bans while keeping unflavored vapes on the table would seem to be the most effective compromise.
I’m not endorsing it.. but just in terms of the gov achieving its goals (one of which is cancer reduction) it seems they will succeed to the extent possible with this approach.
Not to get all conspiracy-minded but banning tobacco is a great precedent for keeping cannabis illegal.
Don’t worry guys, this is just Rishi’s way of telling big tobacco that he needs money. I’m sure a huge pot of cash can make this all go away for them.
This cowardly way of making laws seems exactly like changing public pension plans to make sure they only affect people too young to care about it right now.
Prohibit it for everyone and take your lumps, or don't. Doing things that only affect non-voters is pathetic cowardice.