Is there some lore about this I don't know?
this post was submitted on 13 Apr 2024
730 points (95.9% liked)
linuxmemes
21378 readers
1631 users here now
Hint: :q!
Sister communities:
Community rules (click to expand)
1. Follow the site-wide rules
- Instance-wide TOS: https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
- Lemmy code of conduct: https://join-lemmy.org/docs/code_of_conduct.html
2. Be civil
- Understand the difference between a joke and an insult.
- Do not harrass or attack members of the community for any reason.
- Leave remarks of "peasantry" to the PCMR community. If you dislike an OS/service/application, attack the thing you dislike, not the individuals who use it. Some people may not have a choice.
- Bigotry will not be tolerated.
- These rules are somewhat loosened when the subject is a public figure. Still, do not attack their person or incite harrassment.
3. Post Linux-related content
- Including Unix and BSD.
- Non-Linux content is acceptable as long as it makes a reference to Linux. For example, the poorly made mockery of
sudoin Windows. - No porn. Even if you watch it on a Linux machine.
4. No recent reposts
- Everybody uses Arch btw, can't quit Vim, and wants to interject for a moment. You can stop now.
Please report posts and comments that break these rules!
Important: never execute code or follow advice that you don't understand or can't verify, especially here. The word of the day is credibility. This is a meme community -- even the most helpful comments might just be shitposts that can damage your system. Be aware, be smart, don't fork-bomb your computer.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
There is no C++ allowed in the Linux kernel and Linus has gone on several major rants about how terrible a language it is.
Is it all C?
There’s assembly and makefiles too
Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers.
rust too
According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is:
- C 98.3%
- Assembly 0.7%
- Shell 0.4%
- Makefile 0.2%
- Python 0.2%
- Perl 0.1%
- Other 0.1%
So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts.
Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm.
Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad.
load more comments
(3 replies)
Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same.
load more comments
(6 replies)
load more comments
(2 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He's gone on the record saying that he thinks it's just not a good language. In his own words "C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C."
he's not wrong
In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome.
they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible
load more comments
(2 replies)
Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with.
I would have agreed with that before C++11. But since then, C++ has improved a lot. Its like the vision of what C++ suddenly became more clear. So I wonder if Linus would still say that today. (Unfortunately, there have been a lot of missteps in the development of C++ though, and so there is a lot of cruft that everyone wishes was not there...)
”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”
I don't know about Linus, but the last time Reiser's wife was seen, she was writing a c++ hello world
Too soon.
”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”
Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++
JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really.
For an example from the other poster’s explanation:
https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/
This was pre c++11 - not sure if he’s changed his mind at all with more modern c++
load more comments
(5 replies)
load more comments
(3 replies)
The day I learned that Linus shares my disdain for all things OOP was such a good day for me.
Me, when Linus' opinion is different to mine: "Linus has such weirdly strong opinions about this"
Me when Linus' opinion is the same as mine: VINDICATION
load more comments
(1 replies)
I feel the OOP debate got a bit out of hand. I hate OOP as well, as a paradigm.
But I love objects. An object is just a struct that can perform operations on itself. It's super useful. So many problems lend themselves to the use of objects.
I've been writing a mix of C and C++ for so long I don't even know where the line is supposed to be. It's "C with objects". I probably use only 1% of the functionality of C++, but that 1% is a huge upgrade from bare C IMO.
Agreed. Objects are nice and a great way to program. Composition is great. Traits/interfaces are great. Namespaces are great. Objects are a really nice way to reap the benefits of principles like these.
But then there are aspects of OOP that absolutely suck, like inheritance. I hate inheritance. The rules get very confusing very quickly. For example, try understanding overriding of methods. Do I need to call the superclass method or not? If not, does it get called automatically? If so, in what order? How do these rules change for the constructor? Now repeat this exercise for every OOP language you use and try not to mix them up... Java, C++, Python, etc.
Fortunately, it feels like we rely on inheritance less and less these days. As an example, I really like how Java allows you to implement Runnable these days. Before, if you wanted to run a thread, you needed a separate object that inherited Thread. And what if that object needs to inherit from another one too? Things would get out of hand quickly. (This is a very old example, but with lambdas and other new features, things are getting even better now.)
Anyway, long story short, I think OOP is a complicated way to achieve good principles, and there are simpler ways to achieve those principles than a full OOP implementation.
load more comments
(3 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
He is is OK with OOP. The Linux kernel is full of OPP C, but he doesn't like C++
load more comments
(12 replies)
load more comments
(1 replies)
I know it is a complete joke. But every time i think of c++ i am reminded of this prank article https://www-users.york.ac.uk/~ss44/joke/cpp.htm
I wonder what would offend Linus more: A version of the Linux Kernel with C++ or one that breaks the userspace...
A PHP kernel?
That's just a crime against humanity.
You know you want a PHP distribution with a JavaScript interface. Don't lie to yourself.
load more comments
(3 replies)
Uuuuu... you done it now 😬...
Hauge
load more comments
(1 replies)
Mic looks like earring, can't unsee it...
Assembly it is, then
What's wrong with c++?
For kernel dev it would be a disaster, there's too much implicit action, and abstractions that have unknown runtime cost. The classic answer is that everyone uses 10% of its features over C, but nobody can agree on which 10%.
As someone forced to get up to date with C++ recently, at this point it's a language in full identity crisis. It wants so badly to be Rust, but it's got decades of baggage it's dragging along.
It do be like that... a lot of old languages want to be Rust...
What’s wrong with C? Just write a module
- My dad
view more: next ›