this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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Post contents (and a mirror):

BotDefense is wrapping up operations

TL;DR below.

When we announced the BotDefense project in 2019, we had no idea how large the project would become. Our initial list of bots was just 879 accounts. Most of them were annoying rather than outright malicious.

Since then, we've witnessed the rise of malicious bots being used to farm karma for the purpose of spamming and scamming users across Reddit and we've done our best to help communities stem the tide. We spent countless hours finding and reviewing accounts, writing code to automate detections, and reviewing appeals (mostly from outright criminals and karma farmers definitely running bots, but we typically unban about 4 accounts per month, and unlike similar bots an unban means that we unban the account everywhere we banned it).

Along the way, we've struggled with the scope of the problem, rewritting our back-end code multiple times and figuring out how to scale to the 3,650 subreddits that BotDefense now moderates. We came up with new algorithms to identify content theft, reduce the number of times we accidentally ban an innocent account, and more. In January of 2023, we added an incredible 10,070 bots to our ban list which now stands at an incredible 144,926 accounts.

Like many anti-abuse projects on Reddit, we've done all of this for free while putting up with Reddit's penchant for springing detrimental changes on developers and moderators (e.g., adding API limits without advance notice and blocking Pushshift) and figuring out workarounds for numerous scalability issues that Reddit never seems to fix. Without Pushshift, the number of malicious bots we were able to ban dropped to 5,517 in May.

Now, Reddit has changed the Reddit API terms to destroy third-party apps and harm communities. A group of developers and moderators tried to convince Reddit to not continue down this path and communities protested like never before, but that was all in vain. Reddit is so brazenly hostile to moderators and developers that the CEO of Reddit has referred to us as "landed gentry".

With these changes and in this environment, we no longer believe we can effectively perform our mission. The community of users and moderators submitting accounts to us depend on Pushshift, the API, and third-party apps. And we would be deluding ourselves if we believed any assurances from Reddit given the track record of broken promises. Investing further resources into Reddit as a platform presents significant risks, and it's safer to allocate one's time, energy, and passions elsewhere.

Therefore, we have already disabled submissions of new accounts and our back-end analytics, and we will be disabling future actions on malicious and annoying bots. We will continue to review appeals and process unbans for a minimum of 90 days, or until Reddit breaks the code running BotDefense.

We'd rather be figuring out how to combat the influx of ChatGPT bots flooding Reddit, temu bots flooding subreddits with fake comments, and every other malicious bot out there, of course.

At this time, we advise keeping BotDefense as a moderator through October 3rd so any future unbans can be processed. We will provide updates if the situation changes or if we have any other news to share.

Finally, I want to thank all of the users and moderators who have contributed accounts, my co-moderators who have helped review countless accounts, and to all of the communities that have trusted us with helping moderate their subreddits.

Regards.

โ€” dequeued

TL;DR With the API changes now in place, we no longer believe we can effectively perform our mission so we are sunsetting BotDefense. We recommend keeping BotDefense on as a moderator through October 3rd so any unbans can be processed.

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[โ€“] god_is_love@lemmy.world 158 points 1 year ago (1 children)

๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

Honestly it will obviously be up to you guys but I think you should pull your support right away. The faster Reddit goes downhill the faster apathetic users will think about alternatives. But either way thank you for the work you did and for joining us on Lemmy!!

[โ€“] DocMcStuffin@lemmy.world 72 points 1 year ago

I'm not associated with r/BotDefense, but I'm sure they appreciate your sentiment.

[โ€“] fidodo@lemm.ee 110 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Let this be a lesson to all devs out there. Never do work for corporations for free. Only contribute to FOSS. Devs are the backbone of the internet and before the fediverse there was no outlet for them to work on actually distributed platforms as opposed to libraries and utilities. If you want to do work on a social platform do it on the fediverse where you don't have some heartless corporation exploiting your free work and not appreciating anything you do.

Reddit should have been paying their own devs to do this themselves. This is literally millions of dollars worth of dev work.

[โ€“] AhismaMiasma@lemm.ee 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Why is this copied word for word from the comment by /u/poppyxxx@lemmynsfw.com ?

Bot or bad joke?

[โ€“] jobutupaki@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago

Maybe they accidentally commented with their porn alt? Seems like the comment was deleted.

[โ€“] fidodo@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Signed into the wrong account and Lemmy delete doesn't work ๐Ÿ˜ฌ

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[โ€“] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 87 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If reddit's entire history is any indication, yes. They like spam and malicious actors.

[โ€“] OpenStars@kbin.social 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

MoAr TrAfFiC = w1n, or something.

[โ€“] peril33@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just to get the investors, spez will 100% take the cash and run and let reddit burn down

[โ€“] OpenStars@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

When someone tells you who they are, believe them the first time.

[โ€“] melonpunk@lemmy.world 86 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Reddit's army of pro-spez bots likes this.

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[โ€“] Stanley_Pain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 79 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This Reddit meltdown gets better and better. All of this could've been so easily avoided. Instead we have Reddit, doubling, tripling, quadrupling(sp?) down on terrible ideas. Fun to watch though.

[โ€“] ashok36@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago (1 children)

When 90% of the value of your company is created by a small group of unpaid volunteers, it's not a good idea to piss them off. That said, the repercussions from all this will take a few months at least to be analyzed.

[โ€“] nahida@lemmy.world 34 points 1 year ago

Especially when ChatGPT bots are on the rise... Reddit couldn't have picked a worse time to alienate the BotDefense team.

[โ€“] BrudderAaron@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago

It's a game of Jenga and Spez won't let you take your turn. There's no way he can win it.

[โ€“] Tacocuted@lemmy.fmhy.ml 47 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Another nail in the coffin for Reddit.

As someone that makes a living off of finding and stopping bots, I wish I had known about this project and subreddit. I would have liked to work alongside these folks.

If anyone reading this is in need of bot detection on the Fediverse please message me.

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[โ€“] couragethebravedog@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm sure that reddit realizes it but I'll share for all of you that don't. If CGPT fills reddit with it's own comments then future AI projects won't be able to use Reddit data to train on. An AI that trains on itself or other AI data will suffer what's known as model collapse. Basically if you don't have enough variability in the training data you create an unuseable model, that will happen as CGPT fills the internet more and more with it's content. Sadly if we don't solve this problem then we likely won't get past current gen AI in terms of capabilities and scale.

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[โ€“] quixotic120@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

Bots count as active users on the metrics, Iโ€™m sure Reddit admins see this as a huge win

[โ€“] BilboBargains@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

This is how you fight the money men, take away their toys. The manager-CEO class of people don't understand technology, they think everything is a matter of applying the right amount of psychopathic charisma to cut deals and generate profit. Meanwhile, back in reality, none of this technology works without expertise. The type of person who holds this expertise is the antithesis of the manager-CEO. They run the show, they keep the lights on and they should never forget that.

[โ€“] febra@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago

Reddit is literally using bots to generate artificial activity, so I don't think they'll care much.

[โ€“] xc2215x@lemmy.world 29 points 1 year ago

Reddit continues to crumble, what else is new ?

[โ€“] glorious_albus@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

spez sees this as an absolute win.

[โ€“] HeartyBeast@kbin.social 26 points 1 year ago

Is there any chance that BotDefence might be tempted to turn its talents to the Fediverse?

[โ€“] ongogablogian@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Reddit fucked around, and now they're about to find out.

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[โ€“] amos@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

Holy shit if you keep following the link about the GPT influx it just keeps getting worse and worse. First link: nearly 1000 bots. Next link: 2400 bots! An even further link: Over 5000 now!

[โ€“] kratoz29@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don't you feel bad?

Because of how fat you are gonna get eating all those popcorns while enjoying this shit show!?

[โ€“] gk99@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Bro I'm already fat, this is making weight loss difficult.

[โ€“] Ducks@ducks.dev 18 points 1 year ago

Spez's goal to turn Reddit into Twitter seems to be working, at least

[โ€“] bulwark@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm sure their expertise could be put to good use here!

[โ€“] Speculater@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

I'm already seeing the repost bots grab top posts from Reddit. Then they furiously defend their right to "share content." Bro, you're just posting topYear and topAll.

[โ€“] WhoRoger@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Reddit is now dependent on bots anyway. Who else will write their 5-star reviews and keep shitting on Lemmy in comments?

[โ€“] c4@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This is what Iโ€™m wondering: are they going to unban every bot on the list, or are they just going to stop updating it with new ones? The former would devastate Reddit IMO.

[โ€“] DocMcStuffin@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

They're no longer adding accounts to the list since they can't get the data they need to determine if an account is a bot or not. They're still going to process unbans for false positives for the next 90 days.

There's no indication that they're going to "set the barn on fire". They're just going to walk away and let it collapse on its own.

[โ€“] Hotdogman@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They should really pull a Jurassic Park and open up all of the dinosaur cages. Would make for some great popcorn moments. ๐Ÿฟ

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[โ€“] kbity@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

Anything that lets them pretend things are going just fine and user activity has never been higher. Especially if the bots view ads.

[โ€“] FinallyDebunked 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

did they just make a bot to clean up shit on Reddit out of pure enthusiasm?

[โ€“] ClassyHatter@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Did you just ask that has Reddit ever given anything back to their volunteers, besides sticks, rocks and ill will?

[โ€“] iN8sWoRLd@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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