My daughter was so bullied, we had to pull her out of public school and put her in online school. The school did virtually nothing about it no matter how much we pleaded with them. Even when a girl doxxed her and started prank calling her the school gave both her and my daughter a talking to as if it was my daughter's fault and that was it.
You might have had bad teachers and bad admin, true - but more likely, the school can't do anything.
I'm a teacher, and I cannot tell you how incredibly frustrated I am at how tied my hands are. The admin can't do much, either.
My options: talk sternly to the student. Talk sternly to the parent/guardians. And... that's it.
Send them to the office? Sure. The principal also has those two options, for the most part. Suspending students is something we only do in very rare circumstances, but they really, really try to avoid it, because so often, kids are acting out because of stuff at home, so suspending them only makes the behaviour worse.
We can't do detentions after school or on weekends - we can't force parents to bring their kids in then. Lunch hour detentions, we can't afford dedicated staff to run them, especially since we'd also need them to chase the students down, because it's not like they'll go just because they were told to. We can't fail students any more.
Our district has also even gotten rid of prizes for achievements - no more honor roll, no awards, nothing. Apparently this makes the low performers feel bad, and we couldn't have that.
And talking to the parents? Most parents are honestly great, but also, I never talk to them, because the kids with the great parents, I never need to call home. The asshole kids? Their parents are almost always a nightmare. And it's a waste of time to talk to them.
One kid last year, went after another kid's field trip paperwork with a pair of scissors. Ripped into her like no one's business. Sent an email home describing the situation. I was pretty sure, based on her history, she wasn't really going to destroy his stuff, she was trying to get a rise out of him, so I said something like, "while I believe she was only intending to annoy him, not actually destroy property, it is critical for her to understand that this is absolutely unacceptable behaviour" or something like that.
So rather than telling her kid off, mom goes to the principal to try to get me in trouble for calling her kid annoying.
In application? Doesn't matter what the teachers or even admin want to do. The district, province/state, and country have taken away practically every carrot and stick, when it comes to students with extreme behavior.
It's a huge mess.
I can understand all of that, but when one kid doxxes another and starts making prank calls, which we provided evidence of- we had logs and voicemails- and the administration admonishes both kids, that's on them, not on anyone else. They didn't have to lecture my daughter about bullying the other girl when she was the one being attacked.
In that case, yeah, you've got an admin problem. I'm sorry - that really sucks. The entire system desperately needs an overhaul. The education system in Canada is a dumpster fire, and the US is even worse. Dealing with behavioral issues is one of many major problems...
Thanks. At least we have a solution, even if that solution involves me quitting my job. She's more important than my job anyway.
If your daughter was doxxed, can't you file a criminal complaint directly with the police? At least where I live, it would be grounds for a criminal investigation.
People have tried many times and it never works. Not in the U.S.
See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing#United_States
Damn, that's a shame. He in the EU, there's tons of laws that can be used on cases like that, and many times, they are and work.
Hope things get better for you in the future.
My bully flicked an ink refill at my face, went into my eyes, and right in front of the teacher. I punched him, was taken to the principal and he made me APOLOGISE TO THE BULLY, and shake hands with him. The whole education system is broken.
She doesn't even fight back. She doesn't like to do that. I've tried to tell her to do it and she just doesn't have the self-esteem. It's been bullied out of her. I wish I had taken her out sooner. I feel pretty guilty about that. But I didn't really accept that it was a situation that would not be resolved until Halloween, where she wore a really cool anime cat girl costume which looked exactly like a character she loves- I don't remember the name- that my wife made for her. I'm not big on anime, but it was like high-end cosplay level when it came to a costume. My wife is really talented. She was so excited that she wouldn't even take it off all day after my wife finished it. She wore it to school and basically the entire school told her she was a furry and her costume was terrible and made fun of her the entire day. She got up the next day and broke down and said she couldn't go to school anymore and we realized that was something that is not fixable.
This might be a long shot, but ask her if she'd be interested in learning martial arts. She doesn't need to "learn how to fight" for it to give her more confidence. It worked for me
While it's generally good to avoid confrontations and walk away, it's a good idea to know atleast basic self-defense. School was a terrible experience for me as people with low self-confidence tend to make easy targets for bullies. I hope your daughter gets through school without much trouble. Please do support her. Sometimes it's not easy for kids to tell people cuz of ego or just the general distrust for adults. Also whoever thought putting a bunch of puberty riddled kids into one room was an idiot.
Middle school is the worst time in school. Kids are absolute monsters at that age.
Teachers play favorites and they always loved the psychopaths.
These situations taught me there's no reason in holding back, you're going to get in trouble for doing the right thing. May as well really earn that punishment. I can't even imagine trying to deal with your bully in the age where everyone has a pocket video recorder. Make a statement I say.
That's what schools with zero tolerance policies teach children: hit the bully with extreme prejudice as you're punished anyway even for defending.
Growing up weird and poor in a very conservative and arrogant part of the prairies, I was bullied relentlessly. The teachers never did anything unless it was me fighting back, to which it was suspension and I was a bad kid.
As high school came along, I grew more and more violent to the point I wasn't a loser or a tough guy, but a snap case. The other kids thought I was edgy, the parents thought I was bound for prison, and the teachers probably had a beer when I dropped out.
My mom didn't know what to do. And this was in a time where if your kid was in therapy, it's was your failure as a parent. Combined with my disgust at the idea that I was what was broken, it was off the table. It wasn't until I was in my twenties that I went for psychological help.
By then, I was so suicidal and gone that I wouldn't be near ok until my late thirties. In my mid forties now, I look back and see myself as the potential shooter. I'm holding back my emotions right now, thinking of it. Fortunately, there were no guns at my disposal back, back then is how I feel looking back. I don't know if I'd be able to hurt anyone like that, but I'd fuck myself up.
I lay a lot of blame on a system that allowed it to happen. In a community where open racism and homophobic views were the norm at the time, teachers were as judgmental as the students in some situations. Now maybe if I were white, it'd be easier, but even the broke white kids didn't get any breaks. Especially from the teachers.
Look at me go, a meme has me fucked up thinking back and dumping online. But yeah, there it is.
I'd like to close by saying the town I grew up in is a far different place now. I've moved back and feel good here. I see teachers and bullies who don't make eye contact, will not recognize me at all (which is my favorite) and the occasional happy to see you moments. I don't communicate well in public these days, so it makes it ultra awkward, much like being in high school, talking to students you barely know.
Glad you are okay, my guy.
The best bully defense is an overwhelming and unrelenting offense. Yes, I realize there are many reasons why bullies bully. As one who was bullied constantly up through middle school, the only thing that made them stop is when I lashed back. Not mediation; not getting teachers involved; not ultimatums. Make them regret choosing you as their target.
As someone that got bullied through middle and high school i relate strongly) but unrelenting offence don't work when your bully have influential parents, in my case that was it, and i got labelled as near fricking war criminal, even though i was bullied middle schooler, but you're absolutely right about common cases)
If they believe someone is a criminal already then just escalate things and appear in their houses in the middle of the night while they are sleeping. Worse than a bully only supportive parents. They all deserve the same treatment.
What learned was to fight back when no one was watching. No one believed the bully when they said I did it, and I got some payback.
Can any Americans confirm or refute whether US schools actually punish you for getting beaten up regardless of whether you tried to defend yourself? It sounds way too stupid to be true yet I hear about it again and again.
Also what the hell happened to Stand Your Ground that the US is so infamous for? That doesn't apply to children who are victims of assault and battery?
One of the most common types of bullying in the US is the use of zero tolerance anti bullying rules as a mechanism for bullying.
Example: kid A punches kid B. Then immediately kid A reports kid B for bullying him because kid A knows how the bullying rules work (because they are a bully). Then kid B gets in trouble for getting bullied.
Typically kid A's parents will enthusiastically back then too because their kid "gets bullied all the time" while kid Bs parents aren't experienced with the policies and aren't positive that their kid didn't do something wrong (because they are normal parents), so they don't fight it too hard and just want it to go away.
Ask any teacher in the US and they will tell you that they see this all the time and most every kid that supposedly "gets bullied all the time" is doing exactly this.
In some situations, unfortunately yes. Some schools will take the stupid "zero tolerance" stance so broadly. I do remember a few times growing up that the bullied kid would still get suspended(if they were lucky, at reduced length vs the bully, if enough evidence was available).
Often times (as should be) you're better off fighting back cuz both are gonna get in trouble.
Yes. I got 3 days in alternative school for getting punched because "I was in a fight". The next time I made it worth it and fought back instead of just trying to avoid being hit.
Yep, I pretty quickly learned I should just respond in kind as I'd get punished either way. Generally more severe punishments when it was one sided as well...
Yep! I knew a kid who was punched in the BACK OF THE HEAD without any warning. Same suspension length as the kid who punched
Yep, got suspended once for thrusting my rolling back pack at a kids face. He then punched and knocked a lense out of my glasses.
In 11th grade i snapped at one of my bullies and just went white with rage. Next thing I know I'm on top of him choking him. I got board suspended for a week for that. Fuck the US school system.
LPT: Have a friend distract the teacher before you beat your bully's ass.
Or beat up the bully on his way home. Damn, that was a good feeling.. sigh the good old days.
To be fair, the bully's doing it for attention. The quiet kid's doing it for survival.
I currently work part-time as a bus driver and I just wanna say that it's incredibly hard to determine who is right or wrong when you didn't see what happened and you're just going by what each kid says. If you only see the tail end of a fight, you might wrongfully think the kid retaliating is the bully. 99% of the time it's easier to just separate the kids and/or punish them both equally since it's impossible to determine who the victim and the perpetrator is. It sucks, it feels really bad, but that's the reality of the situation.
This may have been the unfortunate reality 20 years ago. But security cameras are cheap and ubiquitous. If it's on school property (including school busses), then this should be simple. Separate the kids, review the footage, and punish the kid who started it. The one who didn't start it gets an apology and assurances that they're safe and it won't happen again. The whole "punish them both equally" is insane and sociopathic.
Most of the time teachers don't care when kid is bullied, i mean long time ago, when i was in school teachers ignored bullies, saying that they're just playing, when quiet kids got beat up, but when quiet kids retaliate, just like in the meme) teachers come to help) i kinda get it that teachers don't want trouble and when quiet kids endures, teacher won't intervene even if quiet kids gonna ask the teacher, but bully won't gonna endure and gonna screech all over when getting beat up, so i kinda understand why teachers side with bully most of the time, p.s i was quiet kid)
Authorities will always immediately quell any currently-happening hostilities when they arrive on the scene, that's a clearly necessary first step in order to figure out what the hell is happening. A common bullying tactic is to bait the person into fighting back, knowing that the anger will push them so far they get in trouble.
You see, the bully has enormous amounts of experience and practice at toe-ing this precise line. The quiet kid does not, they're quiet, they don't run into it very often. The bully knows this.
So, if you absolutely must hit back because nobody and nothing else is helping, do it quickly, decisively and cleanly, and then stop. Re-arrest your own feelings, and go back to calm. You probably will still get in trouble, but the other kid is more likely to get in trouble with you. And you're less likely to do medically significant damage anyway, if you just hit once instead of wailing on the bully for a solid minute, so, that's better for everyone. If you actually really hurt the kid by accident, that's a whole different ball game, you don't really want that. You just want them to stop doing this in the future, that is all. Deterrence for the future is different from revenge. Revenge is impractical because of how extreme it is, it can create feuds, make things worse. He can avenge your revenge, if you are too harsh. But simple deterrence is a different story, when you're not too harsh, and instead using just enough force to get the safety that you want.
I smoked my bully in front of everyone. He stewed for a few years, then told all the black kids I called them the n word behind their backs. That was the end of any sports for me. They hated me. Some 10 years later I left a party to got get a keg. When I got back luckily someone warned me before I got out of my car that he had arrived and stirred up the same shit. Yep, should've stopped at the one punch. Good lpt.
All reasonable and logical things. But someone bullied accumulates permanent damage for rest of their lives. A bully should expect full repercussions to the max. I sure wished a bunch of them would get run over by cars of broken some legs. They deserve it.
do it quickly, decisively and cleanly, and then stop.
I once punched a dude that was fucking with me in the mouth right in the middle of science class while the teacher had her back to us. He just sat there with a stunned look on his face and stopped. Later after school I ran into him coming from the other direction while I was leaving and he was yelling threatening shit while we were approaching each other. I just kept quiet and kept walking towards him and when I got within speaking distance he said something like "you like punching people in the mouth?" and I was just like "yeah" and kept walking past him. I really thought he was going to attack me but he didn't do anything and didn't fuck with me after that.
The reason zero tolerance policies get so often implemented is because kids tend to be much smarter in how they go about being dicks to one another than in how they do their schoolwork, or, in how they do almost anything else. If you implement one-sided policies that favor the bullied, it's then in the bully's best interest to instead appear bullied, which can end up being a pretty common tactic anyways. There's also more circumstances under which bullying can take place than just physical. Verbal bullying is much harder to prove and do anything about, and the worst is probably when some random kid gets dogpiled for being different, there's not much teachers can do about that even if it's relatively obvious. Which is also resting on the assumption that the teacher isn't also taking part in the bullying as a way to be seen as "cool" by their students, which is unfortunately something that's not uncommon. There's also mutual bullying in which kids can egg each other on until one goes too far, and then maybe zero-tolerance policies end up making some sense, as the group's behavior as a whole is what really needed to stop.
I think taking a more top-down view of the problem, it would seem to me that there's a similar problem going on to when reagan defunded all of the mental institutions, or whatever metaphor you'd wanna use here. There's a lot of attempts to make things right by removing things, rather than adding things. It's bad to lower a student's grade as a result of their malicious behavior, rather than their output, and usually bullies have bad grades anyways. Can't impose on the parents at all because the parents of bullies tend to either be nutso helicopter parents, or tend to be bullies to their children. And then sending kids to other school districts usually just ends up condemning then to a boiling pot of other kids who are maybe worse, or will exacerbate their behavior as it isolates them more, and in extreme cases it can lead them to criminality. Results are going to be kind of mixed on student counseling, if you have a therapist or psychiatrist on campus that's extremely lucky and can also have mixed results, and there's really not anything else you can offer kids other than that, for a variety of reasons. It's relatively hard to get people to stop being self-destructive in the best of times, as an institution, and it's much harder when those people are kids, and when you're inevitably going to be some underfunded institution, since schools funded by the rich, and their property taxes, tend to have children that will engage in less bullying, even if those kids are subject to other psychologically unhealthy pressures.
We could probably solve a good amount of this by just funding schools federally on an equal basis, or with voucher programs based on student population, but nobody wants to fund/expand those programs because schools tend to be underfunded and give bad results already, and we unfortunately have a tendency in this country to give something less money when it performs poorly, as some sort of sacrifice to the free market.
it's interesting that everyone here is a victim. why isn't anyone owning up to being the bully? the ratio is highly suspect.
personally, I was mostly the victim. but I can think of a small number of times where I punched down the pecking order because that's how I poorly dealt with the abuse by the real bullies.
I wish I had been encouraged to fight back by my parents. unfortunately the emotional abuse at home fully contributed to the lack of self esteem required to do so.
Do you think your bullies would spend time on Lemmy? Much less admit they were bullies on a thread like this? I think there might be a bias at play here.
That can be true, but it varies a lot. As a teacher, I can guess at a lot but have proof of very little. So I can do things, but maybe you wouldn't even notice them most of the time. You're looking for a suspension, and that only happens in very specific circumstances.
Of course everything varies by school and district.