this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2022
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[–] fit6529@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago

I laugh how politicians come up with euphemisms. Now power and influence are called security. This applies to every country which is or wants to be an empire.

[–] vekku@sopuli.xyz 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

What a reality we live in. The one who is offensive gets to claim that their security is being threatened. It's like if a rapist demanded that the victim apologizes and promises never to do it again.

Which actually fits this situation better than one might imagine: https://www.businessinsider.in/politics/world/news/putin-quoted-song-lyrics-about-rape-and-necrophilia-to-explain-russias-demands-from-ukraine/articleshow/89430396.cms

"Whether you like it or don't like it, bear with it, my beauty," Putin said.

[–] nachtigall@feddit.de 5 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Russia has nuclear weapons. That was and will be a sufficient security guarantee.

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

That doesn't seem to be sufficient to keep the Russian territories of the Donbas from bombings.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What Russian territories? The fake ones that they don't even entirely occupy?

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Oh pingveno, don't they give you time off at Eglin?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

"Everyone who disagrees with me is a paid shill."

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I actually think you're a sophisticated AI built to spread NATO white supremacy to nerds.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm not wrong. Russia simply declared that a large part of Ukraine that has no legitimate claim over was now Russian. Doesn't make it so.

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Hey Alexa, what's a referendum?

[–] zksmk@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I honestly can't tell if people that write this type of stuff are delusional or misinformed or both or what's going on. Ah, yes, a "referendum", announced 3 days in advance, done in less than a week, in the middle of a war-zone, with a refugee crisis happening, with invading soldiers on every corner, with no multiple unbiased third party observers. Mariupol had over 400 000 people before this invasion, in January, and now it has less than 100 000. The Catalan referendum took literal years (the Catalonia/Spain situation and what I may or may not think of it being beside the point) to be finished. The only time I can think of this kind of referendum happening was with that guy with a mustache in Austria, but that's not a flattering look, you don't want that comparison.

In the most recent elections in 2019 the "pro-Russian" parties and candidates (the blue ones, and only the dark blue one was decisively pro-Russian, the leader of the light blue party had this to say once the invasion happened) didn't constitute the majority anywhere, especially not in southern Ukraine. And for those who did vote, voting for a party that wants closer ties with Russia and joining CIS ("Russia's EU" ) means you want to be annexed into Russia they same way voting for a pro-EU party and closer ties with the EU means you want to be annexed into Poland. In case it's not clear, it doesn't.

And to top it all of, you'll notice the area that voted in a higher amount for closer ties with Russia and voted for the "pro-peace" parties as they were called, in a more detailed view, through several stages of the election, almost matches the borders of the oblasts, one, two, three, and not any kind of ethnic or declared language or linguistic boundaries. Which means people there are sick of a war ravaging their home, their towns being cut of from the regional center, where their kids might've went to uni before the war, and so on, and most poeple don't care about the whole "we're Russians, we love Russia, we want to be a part of it so bad" kind of thing.

The only regions that might make some sense are Crimea and the former secessionist area, but I guess we'll never know for sure, with how those annexations and invasions were carried out too. And guess what, when Crimea was invaded, the world mostly didn't care, even Ukraine mostly just "sent a stern letter". When the Donbas secessionists did their thing, the world still mostly didn't care. Ukraine, of course had to, it was a mixed area with no clear borders, of course it had to respond. There was no slow build up to a referendum, nothing, just a straight up secession in a mixed area. And even then, the new border seems to have mostly matched the area of ethnic Russians which means, probable local support, and it divided the oblasts in half, roughly accordingly to support, and the border was frozen, for almost a decade.

The main reason this invasion is happening is because Putin and his oligarch and KGB clique are deathly afraid of a more democratic and pro-EU Russian-language-knowing-and-speaking country right next door and what it could do to their power positions. And the US and Russia battling for better power positioning over the backs of Ukraininans. And so they went for a land bridge to Crimea, whether the people there want it or not, with military force, and they went for puting a ball and a chain on the ankle of Ukraine, that's what this is about. Probably mix in a bit of delusional nationalistic grandeur on Putin's part of wanting to have a "legacy", and a bit of paranoia, and what not.

Acting like this 2022 invasion is what the people of Ukraine wanted is ridiculous.

[–] oblivion_comes@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Tell me you haven't seen images of Ukrainians cellophane-wrapping partly-clothed men, women, and children to poles in the bitter cold, without telling me you haven't.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I don't understand, how did you know my name?

But you said Russia declared Ukrainian territory was Russian. Were you lying?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

Russia declared that part of Ukraine that Russia doesn't even fully occupy was part of Russia. It's ridiculous. And to illustrate how much of a complete farce the "referendum" was, there was a news story in Russia that purported to show the glorious vote counting with overwhelming approval. It featured a vote counter showing each ballot and saying "da" for each. If you looked closely, the ballots didn't even have markings. They don't respect your intelligence enough to fake an election properly.

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This implies nuclear war is an option on the table, definitely a bad call. Additionally, wouldn't this mean the US has ample security? Based on their routine war crimes I'd think the opposite. Their weaponry does however ensure worldwide chaos, especially if a country wants to drop the dollar or has natural resources to exploit.

[–] roastpotatothief@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

They've done it before.

[–] nachtigall@feddit.de 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This implies nuclear war is an option on the table

It is under certain conditions

Additionally, wouldn't this mean the US has ample security?

Absolutely. No one would realistically think about an attack on American soil, just like with any other nuclear power.

Based on their routine war crimes I'd think the opposite.

How so? USA terrorising the rest of the world does not contradict my initial statement.

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Absolutely. No one would realistically think about an attack on American soil, just like with any other nuclear power.

So thats it, got nukes and you'll get space, otherwise bend over as the US is coming for all your shit? Maybe its the insane spending on weaponry which allows the US to run a muck overseas destroying any shred of security in other country's.

How so? USA terrorising the rest of the world does not contradict my initial statement.

Your statement permits terrorism, weapons equaling security is just downstream lockheed martin & friends propaganda. Where as security by definition means being free from danger or threat. Russian and US both possessing nukes derails any global security and more so in those two country's, no?

[–] nachtigall@feddit.de 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I did't claim nuclear weapons being a solution for world peace. It is just that in the current state of the world, Russia would be the least to need "security guarantees" because no one would attack them anyway. You, however, make it appear I suggest to arm up anyone. But whatever, just keep twisting my words to fit your narrative ✌️

[–] shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

The article is about peace, granted world peace is a long way off but you eat an elephant one bite at a time, starting by ending current wars. Stating nukes equal security is what I don't agree with at all and I was just trying to expand on your stance. All in all, it is not a logical approach at all to say if a country has nukes they can't ask for some assurance they won't be neede 🤷‍♂️

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Russia would be the least to need "security guarantees" because no one would attack them anyway.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Bridge_explosion

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Oh no, Ukraine attacked infrastructure outside of Russia that is being used to attack Ukraine. I mean, I guess that Putin's pride is wounded a little.

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The Crimean bridge between Russia and Russian Crimea is outside of Russia?

The previous poster said no one would attack Russia. Which is untrue.

When y'all sign up, do they make you use your own account? Are you paid by the day or by the comment? It's by the comment, right? You've got a whole Dickens thing going on.

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What is this Russian Crimea that you speak of?

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Do they not have big maps on the wall in your troll farm?

[–] pingveno@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Big beautiful maps with Crimea in Ukraine. Only Russian maps show Crimea as Russian.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

Hey quick question for you, who do you think lives in Crimea exactly?

[–] simply_surprise@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 years ago

with Crimea in Ukraine.

It's not inside the Ukraine, silly

[–] Munrock@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 years ago

Nuclear weapons didn't protect the USSR from Glasnost.

[–] Shaggy0291@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 years ago

Was it a sufficient guarantee for the US when missiles came to Cuba?