this post was submitted on 14 Jul 2024
30 points (100.0% liked)

Politics

10185 readers
727 users here now

In-depth political discussion from around the world; if it's a political happening, you can post it here.

Guidelines for submissions:

These guidelines will be enforced on a know-it-when-I-see-it basis.

Subcommunities on Beehaw:

This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
alyaza@beehaw.org
TheRtRevKaiser@beehaw.org
Gaywallet@beehaw.org
JuBe@beehaw.org
JCPhoenix@beehaw.org
kalanggam@beehaw.org
circularfish@beehaw.org
knokelmaat@beehaw.org
remington@beehaw.org
30
The Only Kind of “Political Violence” All U.S. Politicians Oppose (theintercept.com)
submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by t3rmit3@beehaw.org to c/politics@beehaw.org
16 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

The chorus of condemnation was predictable and not in itself a problem: There’s nothing wrong with desiring a world without stochastic assassination attempts, even against political opponents. But when you have Israel’s minister of foreign affairs, Israel Katz of the fascistic ruling Likud Party, tweeting, “Violence can never ever be part of politics,” the very concept of “political violence” is evacuated of meaning.

The problem is not so much one of hypocrisy or insincerity — vices so common in politics that they hardly merit mention. The issue, rather, is what picture of “political violence” this messaging serves: To say that “political violence” has “no place” in a society organized by political violence at home and abroad is to acquiesce to the normalization of that violence, so long as it is state and capitalist monopolized.

As author Ben Ehrenreich noted on X, “There is no place for political violence against rich, white men. It is antithetical to everything America stands for.”

top 16 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Thevenin@beehaw.org 8 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Disagree. Every state will characterize the violence it receives differently than the violence it enacts. Even a well-intended egalitarian state can never equivocate acts of violence against its officers with those done by its officers, because if the state fails to produce an immune response against one attack, it will soon find itself overwhelmed by more. The state has to treat vigilante justice and especially attacks against its officers as illegitimate on principle, or else it will cease to be.

States claim a monopoly on legitimate violence, and I'd even say that's what makes a state a state. If a given geographic region has a hundred different entities that can enact violence without each others' permission, you don't have a state, you have a hundred states.

You cannot ask officers of the state to equivocate violence by and against the state. That's not their job. That judgement is our job.

(You can also argue that the state shouldn't exist, but that's a different and far more interesting discussion than the one the article poses.)

[–] LukeZaz@beehaw.org 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think you're viewing the issue from a strategic lens, whereas this article is looking at it from a moral one. Obviously, we can't expect a state to be even-handed with its application of violence for the very reasons you state here. But obviously... that doesn't make it okay.

In short, I don't think you're actually disagreeing with the article at all.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I agree with everything you've written.

And yes, I would argue that the State, in it's current incarnation, shouldn't exist, and that is exactly why we should not as citizens acquiesce to this current power grab (albeit an ideological one), attempting to enshrine political violence as legitimately the domain of the State.

If you look at the course of just even US history, you will see that the State has grabbed more and more expansive power than could ever have been imagined, and that the original conception of the role of the government (in its immediate rejection of authoritarian Monarchy) was far less dangerous than it exists as today (yes, it was racist, imperialist, sexist, and violent even back then, but it still is, and now it has nukes and black sites and massive pervasive surveillance, and so much more). But power creep is inevitable; power is how States compete with each other, so of course that power creep also extends to its own citizens.

That one State entity (let alone multiple ones) can truthfully claim to possess the ability to destroy human civilization writ large, and the clear willingness to wield it, should serve as proof that States cannot be trusted to wield violence (which, as you note, States must in order to exist).

But like you said, that's beyond the scope of the article.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 3 points 3 months ago

Big surprise: other politicians don't want to be shot doing their job.

[–] petrescatraian@libranet.de 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It's true that those very people condemning the shooting are specifically those that are growing an unsafe environment, a climate of exclusion against minorities of any kind and people who do not agree with them. But on the other hand, any act of political violence, especially against a running candidate, is a threat against democracy itself.

In a democratic system, the election system has this very purpose of preventing violence of one pretender against the other, by forcing them to peacefully convince as many people as possible instead of turning anything into a bloody battle for power, like it was in Europe in the 1700s for example when one monarch died. Thus, it could even prevent a situation where a bunch of these pretenders could attract as many followers and/or buy as much weaponry needed to start a civil war - and bring the state itself in conflict in the process. The elections are the best way of insuring a peaceful transition of power, one that would not affect the regular folk, the business environment, the economy, basically anyone who doesn't want to involve themselves into politics to such an extent that it would affect them personally.

Once you turn to murdering candidates/politicians, no matter how white the candidate is, how poor the candidate is, what gender they are, their profession, anything, you are committing political violence. And once you are committing political violence, you strain away from democracy, and you're incentivizing a return to a system where the power should be won by force instead of by belief.

And the amount of blood one leader has on their hands from killing civilians, bombing countries etc. would not be lower in such a system, but instead it would add up with the blood of probably other innocent civilians from their homeland whose only mistake was their political affiliations.

Would you prefer to go to fight in order to support your candidate instead of going to the ballots and placing a stamp on a piece of paper? I'm sure most of you would not.

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

But on the other hand, any act of political violence, especially against a running candidate, is a threat against democracy itself.

This is true, but sometimes candidates are also themselves threats to democracy.

Is a vote to abolish democracy, democracy?

  • If you believe Democracy is simply a process, with no moral superiority to non-democratic alternatives, then you'd probably say, "yes".

  • If you believe Democracy is a morally-imperative state that underpins freedom to self-determine as a group, then you'd probably say, "no".

[–] petrescatraian@libranet.de 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

@t3rmit3 So political violence is justifiable when democracy is at risk, right. What happens if the side abolishing democracy decides that political violence can be justified for them too? How can you save democracy this way? We legitimate political violence in order to justify democracy? Will it still be a democracy if the elected candidate can be gunned down legitimately? What about if the candidate has the biggest chance of winning?

And also, how can you justify democracy as the better option in front of non-democratic states that are also making use of political violence to repress their opponents? Don't you think these countries would be more determined in their suppressions when they see that the good guys are also doing it?

And last, but not least, does that freedom to self-determine as a group also involve becoming politically violent against your opponent? To which extent is this still a democracy and not a fight for power by all means?

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

So political violence is justifiable when democracy is at risk, right.

Obviously, yes? If this was an outside group attempting to invade and impose authoritarian rule, I don't think anyone would be debating this point, but because it's an internal one...

What happens if the side abolishing democracy decides that political violence can be justified for them too?

Hmm, you mean like has already happened?

How can you save democracy this way?

Are you under the impression that democracy was always the way that governments operated, until displaced? Authoritarianism (whether monarchy, feudalism, fascism, or otherwise) has to be actively dismantled in order to create the space for democracy.

Will it still be a democracy if the elected candidate can be gunned down legitimately? What about if the candidate has the biggest chance of winning?

Assassinations are an action that occurs to protect a given status quo. They occur in or out of democracies. They are orthogonal to Democracy.

And also, how can you justify democracy as the better option in front of non-democratic states that are also making use of political violence to repress their opponents?

Political violence by the state is different than political violence by the people.

And last, but not least, does that freedom to self-determine as a group also involve becoming politically violent against your opponent? To which extent is this still a democracy and not a fight for power by all means?

What do you think Project2025 already is?

I'm not arguing that this person was right to do what they did (or tried to do), I'm arguing that this rhetoric of the unacceptability of political violence is just the State protecting its own power, and its own position as the "legitimate" arbiter of political violence.

[–] petrescatraian@mstdn.ro 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

@t3rmit3 My server is dead today, so I cannot reply from my main account.

Obviously, yes? [...]

I gasped for a moment, but yes, we are talking about internal violence committed by a group of people inside that country.

Hmm, you mean like has already happened?

How exactly has it already happened, more specifically, during this election? Did anyone try to shoot Biden or any Democrat in this campaign?

Assassinations are an action that occurs to protect a given status quo.

This is highly debatable. The nazis, fascists, legionnaires did a lot of politically motivated crimes in order to get in power. Does that make them the protectors of the status quo? What about various terrorist organizations around the world? What about people trying to kill Hitler? Anyway, I won't go on with this because it is more of a separate discussion.

But do you think that a state that doesn't have this ability of protecting its own power and its own monopoly on violence would be a safer, freer and more just to its people than a state that has it? Do you think that such a state could protect marginalized, smaller and weaker groups better than a state that has this monopoly of violence?

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

January 6th was a massive occurrence of political violence, involving hundreds of right wing agitators and would-be assassins, had they managed to actually get ahold of any congresspersons. They literally were chanting to kill the vice president.

But do you think that a state that doesn’t have this ability of protecting its own power and its own monopoly on violence would be a safer, freer and more just to its people than a state that has it?

Yes, absolutely. Without a monopoly on violence, it would be hard pressed to be anything but that, because it would have to actively vie for the power to do those things.

States are intrinsically hierarchical, and hierarchy doesn't like sharing power. It will grab/create more and more authority, using any means (but mainly violence). The entire history of the 20th century (and it's looking like the 21st as well) is one giant chronicle of state violence against minorities, other states, and any citizens who disagree with the first 2.

Do you think that such a state could protect marginalized, smaller and weaker groups better than a state that has this monopoly of violence?

I think you've got the question backwards. States are the worst instigators of violence against marginalized, smaller, and weaker groups, and when they do this, it takes massive wars to stop them (or, as we see in Gaza, they just don't get stopped).

Imperialism, Colonialism, Fascism, Authoritarianism... Those aren't words primarily used to describe the actions of non-state actors.

[–] petrescatraian@mstdn.ro 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

@t3rmit3 I was talking about the current elections. I do not think that that guy's act was a specific act of revenge for the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol, especially if that guy was a Republican registered voter. Otherwise, he could have acted sooner instead of waiting for a presidential term to finish. The guy's attempt was specifically due to Trump's current nomination as a candidate. That's why I asked you how did it already happen during this election process, not in the past.

Yes, absolutely.

I think you might not be that different from a Republican on this one :) even though for a different reason.

I think you’ve got the question backwards. States are the worst instigators of violence against marginalized, smaller, and weaker groups

States are also the ones using public money to fund healthcare centers, centers for people in need (eldery, women escaping abusive relationships, unwanted children), they are also making the public space more accessible for people with disabilities, they are providing public transport options for people unable to ensure themselves this option, sometimes even providing means of communications (through mail for example). Of course, you could point out that there is more work to be done in some cases and in many countries, but it's still an effort in the right direction and, imo, these sometimes provide better options than letting individuals work by themselves in order to solve these problems.

If you'd ask me, I would feel safer in this regard when accessing these services provided by the state instead of relying on a fringe (sometimes) armed group, looking to gain power for themselves. But that's just me, I guess...

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

The change of one administration to the next does not erase events from the previous one. This guy was a conservative, given statements from his classmates saying that explicitly, so obviously it was not in revenge for J6; I'm not sure where you got the idea I was arguing that? I'm arguing that political violence (by Republicans) exists in the status quo, prior to this other Republican's actions.

I think you might not be that different from a Republican on this one

Republicans are mostly neolibs, same as Democrats. But yes, LibLeft philosophies like Anarchism and LibRight ones like Libertarianism both tend to be suspicious of government, and AuthLeft philosophies like Marxist-Leninism, Centrist philosophies like Neoliberalism, and AuthRight ones like Fascism, all are big on loving (their) governments.

States are also the ones using public money to fund healthcare centers, centers for people in need (eldery, women escaping abusive relationships, unwanted children), they are also making the public space more accessible for people with disabilities, they are providing public transport options for people unable to ensure themselves this option, sometimes even providing means of communications (through mail for example).

You are seeing states do those things, and presuming (I'm guessing based on where you live) that those actions are therefore the actions of states. They're not, they're the actions of a community. When you belong to a community that a state supports, it provides those things that all communities provide. When you don't, they don't.

these sometimes provide better options than letting individuals work by themselves in order to solve these problems.

Are you under the impression that the only alternative to "Modern Western State Governments" is "individuals work[ing] by themselves"?

If you’d ask me, I would feel safer in this regard when accessing these services provided by the state instead of relying on a fringe (sometimes) armed group, looking to gain power for themselves.

I hate to break it to you, but states are just very large armed groups, the legitimacy of which is entirely determined by their strength of arms. Israel kills far more people than Hamas, under at very least equally-questionable tactics, but Israel is a "legitimate" government because they have enough guns (and enough friends with guns) to force others to acknowledge them as such. If Israel had no friends and a weaker military than their enemies, they would be considered a "rogue" (or as you call it, "fringe") state. This is precisely why "pariah" states pursue weapons programs like nuclear arms; that lends them legitimacy in the Statist, Neoliberal world order.

[–] petrescatraian@libranet.de 1 points 3 months ago

You are seeing states do those things, and presuming (I'm guessing based on where you live) that those actions are therefore the actions of states. They're not, they're the actions of a community.

They're clearly state actions where I live, the organizations they do are politically represented, they get funds from the state budget, they function according to politically voted legislation etc.

The same politicians that vote for them can also reallocate parts of the budget to and from the military, the police force or any other fields.

We do have private initiatives as well, supported directly by the community with money, who govern themselves, who are responsible for every penny they spend, but they're different from the state controlled entities. The legislators generally do not vote dedicated legislation for them, but for the category they fall into (e.g. non-government organization for that matter). You rarely see legislators adopting laws for one specific private entity, if ever when it comes to smaller such entities.

Are you under the impression that the only alternative to "Modern Western State Governments" is "individuals work[ing] by themselves"?

Anything that involves private initiative is individuals working for themselves. If it's not voted by the elected officials, paid from taxpayer money, it's called private initiative - so there is an individual/some individuals deciding the finance and governance and other sensitive issues of the organization themselves.

I hate to break it to you, but states are just very large armed groups, the legitimacy of which is entirely determined by their strength of arms. [...] Israel is a "legitimate" government because they have enough guns (and enough friends with guns) to force others to acknowledge them as such.

That is the way the international system works, of course. But on the other hand, this legitimacy they are provided allows them to worry less about their security and spend their money on the actual social services needed for a state to function. There are, of course, rogue states (yes, you can safely call them that way as well), that choose to terrorize their people instead. But politically motivated violence, whichever side it is coming from, in a country that calls itself the leader of the free and democratic world, does not help in making them less likely to do so. Quite the contrary.

[–] LukeZaz@beehaw.org 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this article, and in addition the comments you've been making here on top have also been of great quality besides. Thanks you for posting this!

[–] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 2 points 3 months ago

Aw, thank you! Cheers!

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 2 points 3 months ago

🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:

Click here to see the summaryPoliticians swiftly coalesced around the language of “political violence,” rather than terrorism, to describe the assassination attempt, carried out by Thomas Matthew Crooks, who was shot dead at the Western Pennsylvania rally.

“The idea that there’s political violence … in America like this, is just unheard of, it’s just not appropriate,” said President Joe Biden, the backer of Israel’s genocidal war against Palestine, with a death toll that researchers believe could reach 186,000 Palestinians.

Biden’s narrower point was correct, though: Deadly attacks on the American ruling class are vanishingly rare these days.

“There is absolutely no place for political violence in our democracy,” tweeted former President Barack Obama, who oversaw war efforts and military strikes against Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan with massive civilian death tolls; Obama added that we should “use this moment to recommit ourselves to civility and respect in our politics.” “There is no place for political violence, including the horrific incident we just witnessed in Pennsylvania,” wrote Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y.

Trump and his Republican Party will no doubt remain committed to a political imaginary of apocalyptic race war and paranoid tribalism, which the assassination attempt will likely only feed.

Democratic leaders will call for civility and continue to fill the coffers of police departments nationwide, while sending billions of condition-free dollars and bombs to Israel.

Saved 70% of original text.