this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2024
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Cashless society, forced banking, and the War on Cash

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In many regions people are being forced patronize banks. This community is for that discussion regardless of which side of the war on cash you are on.

The war on cash is war on privacy.

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In a Dutch bar I ordered a few samples (which have no cost and were somewhat generous in size) and drank part way through them all. Then I ordered a full sized beer. I continued working on the samples.

Bartender asked if I wanted to pay now or start a tab. I asked if they accept cash. It feels silly to ask and I almost didn’t ask because the answer is always “yes”, of course. So I was shocked when the bartender said no.

WTF? Surely there would be enough customers who are wise enough to foresee possible consequences of having electronic records of alcohol consumption. It can only work against you, e.g. when the bank, data brokers, and insurance companies see an opportunity to collude and optimise your your insurance premiums using that info.

The GDPR would theoretically protect Europeans from that but bars are open to tourists -- non-Europeans with non-European bank accounts. I mentioned that to the bartender, who said “what’s the GDPR?” Wow. I was shocked again.

I made it clear that electronic payment doesn’t work for me (most especially when alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana are involved). I said: can someone pay with their own account and take my cash? Bartender asked if I have exact change. No, I didn’t but I got close enough that the bartender was able to use the tip jar to give me change.

I later noticed that the menu book (1st page after the cover) says “cash not accepted”. But I initially missed that because I ordered off the posted board. And there’s no guarantee anyway that a customer would see the first page. I often flip straight to the last page to look for drinks. When I left the bar I had a look at the entrance and door. There was no cash-hostile signage like some other shops have.

Questions for Dutch folks:

If the bar had been less reasonable, less flexible, how else might this have played out? I did not sip from the full beer before the conversation, so I suppose the bar could have just treated it like an erroneous beer pour and pour it down the drain.

Suppose I had not thought to ask if cash was accepted. What if I drank the beer and then my cash were refused with both sides standing their ground? There is a practical problem here not just a legal one. The hundreds worth of banknotes in my pocket would be worthless. So would it be no different than the situation of a deadbeat debtor who simply does not pay? Would I be cited and fined? Would I have the option to leave the bar with an invoice to pay by bank transfer, perhaps using the post office? Would I have to leave collateral such as an ID card while running the errand? And what if it’s Sunday or after hours of the post office?

What about the case where someone enters with bank card(s) that are in a broken state, unknown to the card holder? I’ve been in grocery store lines where a customer tries all their cards. Often the last card they try works but I’ve seen a case where someone had to leave all their groceries. I’ve been in situations where a card in good standing is refused for being foreign (despite the rules of the card network). Are these situations legally any different than someone who simply has no cards to pay with?

There is a very wise “EU Recommendation” that cash be accepted on payments towards debts specifically (not necessarily points of sale). I believe if you have a bar/restaurant tab that would be a /debt/, not a /point of sale/. But what are EU recommendations good for? Is it just to guide lawmakers, or is there some courtroom value when national policy deviates from the recommendation?

FWIW, this thread is where I learned that cash acceptance is optional in Netherlands. The original post was censored but that cross-post mirrors it.

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[–] Anticorp@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Isn't it illegal to not accept cash?

[–] Vinny_93@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

No, it's not. Matter of fact, a lot of places in the Netherlands don't accept cash because of how quick electronic payment is and because most cash is involved in some form of illegal transaction.

[–] activistPnk 1 points 4 months ago

Apparently not. See this thread.

[–] Vinny_93@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I suppose you just discuss with the bar owner how to pay your dues. Dependant on where in the Netherlands you are, you might find someone else in the bar willing to pay your tab if you reimburse them in cash.

But in most cases, it's better to prevent than to fix. Make sure they accept cash before building up a tab.

[–] activistPnk 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

This doesn’t answer any of my questions. I’m asking for the nuts and bolts of enforcement procedure and how the legal process works. What are the rules? The “know your rights” mantra seems to be slipping. I want to know my rights and obligations, and I want to know the same for shop owners.

I’ve been in situations where businesses and gov offices say “have a friend pay”. I want to know what the lawyers and judges would say in terms of legal expectations; because surely they would be embarrassed to go on record saying to find a friend or arbitrary stranger willing to proxy, and by extension to make it a legal obligation to have a banked friend or to be legally dependent on the decision of someone else.

Suppose the bar is empty, I’m the only customer, and there was no “no cash” sign. And I have a tab. And the bartender’s own personal bank card is dysfunctional. And I do not have exact change. Then what happens?

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Despite popular thought in the USA, cash isn’t required to be accepted here, either. I learned this from watching police bodycam videos online. Not a lawyer.

[–] activistPnk 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I’m familiar with 3 countries on this:

  • USA: (PoS) cash acceptance is optional. If the point of sale fails because the parties disagree, then the transaction simply does not happen and no one is at a loss. It generally works well but that’s largely b/c AFAIK cash-hostility has not yet started with anything essential (energy, water, city services). A utility company would have to start demanding pre-payment to impose a cashless transaction.
  • USA: (debts) cash acceptance toward a debt is legally obligatory. The law is written such that if a debtor can manage to leave cash in the creditor’s possession, the debt is reduced by the amount left. From there, the creditor can burn it or throw it out the window if they want, but the debt is reduced regardless. Someone angry with the tax regime once paid their tax in many boxes of pennies to express their outrage with the tax system.
  • Belgium: (PoS) cash acceptance is obligatory in situations where the seller and consumer are in the same physical space, face to face. So online sales, vending machines, unmanned gas stations, etc, there is no obligation. Exceptions: if there is a serious security issue and the place of business is temporary, or the consumer wants to pay using a banknote that is disproportionate to the cost, or the consumer wants to pay in copious shrapnel (coins). Sounds good but it’s actually unenforced, so consumer rights are imaginary in this regard. It really gets screwy when there are contracts that obligate electronic payments. Technically the contract is illegal and should be unenforceable, but Belgium seems to allow such contracts to ride.
  • Belgium: (debts) same as PoS. Belgium makes no distinction between PoS and debts.
  • Netherlands: (PoS) optional according to this thread.
  • Netherlands: (debts) no idea. This is one of my questions. It’s really bizarre if a bar can allow tabs to accumulate, creating a debt, and then refuse cash.

(PoS = point of sale)