Israel - Wahhhhh! They rejected key elements!
World - Which elements?
Israel - Wahhhhh! They rejected key elements!
this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2024
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Title:
Israel says Hamas rejects key elements of US ceasefire plan for Gaza
From the same article:
The United States has said Israel accepted its proposal, but Israel has not publicly said this.
So instead of focusing on what Israel has to say about this proposal, we are asked to focus on what Israel has to say about what Hamas allegedly says on this proposal.
Hamas has exactly the same conflict of interest as Likud: Keeping the war going and creating suffering for "their" side helps drive support from their fellow countrymen who by and large don't like them otherwise, and kind of want to get rid of them.
I won't say that there's a direct similarity but they both have reasons to reject peace proposals and keep the slaughter going, to the detriment of "their side."
Hamas' reason for their attack on October was very likely to blow up the negotiations between Israel and other Arab countries to normalize diplomatic relations. Even if they also wanted the conflict to legitimize themselves in front of Gazans, I doubt Gazans need any more bombs to fall upon their heads to get the message.
I don't think it's impossible for them to tense the cord and try and get more out of the negotiations, but they don't really have anything to gain from extending the hostilities.
Which is why... Hamas accepts a ceasefire and israel doesnt....?
Flawless logic.
Israel is a lot more malicious in their sabotage of the peace process than Hamas is, yes. Like I said, I'm not suggesting an equivalence between the two; Israel is clearly worse. I'm just saying that Hamas also has some of the same twisted incentives in place.
They didn't suddenly murder hundreds of innocent people back in October because they wanted to inflame a sudden spasm of peace and good will. Just because Israel is worse, doesn't mean Hamas is not bad.
No they murdered people because they were being murdered and wanted the murdering to stop. And since murdering Palestinians was fine some of them figured they could do the same thing since apparently it's fine if the israelis do it.
And since we all collectively decided to ignore the peaceful march to return in 2018 Hamas had to come to the conclusion at some point that we do not care about people that ask nicely.
It must be difficult to comprehend but one side is fighting to achieve peace. The other side is fighting to eradicate all the Palestinians and steal their land.
This is very clearly reflected in Hamas consistently trying to achieve a ceasefire and israel doing the exact opposite.
wanted the murdering to stop
How'd that work out
If they were killing Israelis in some way that would lead to better outcomes for the Palestinian people, I'd say that'd be pretty well justified at this point, for more or less exactly the reasons you said. That's pretty fuckin far from what they did though.
They certainly did heavily target military bases with a >33% military casualty rate.
As with any armed resistance you get some people that are less educated and more vengeful. Locking people in a concentration camp for 20 years doesn't do wonders for their mental.
Also it's working out pretty well for them because as the popular saying goes: The guerilla wins if it does not lose. And Hamas is not losing right now.
People seem to heavily underestimate how bad the living conditions in Gaza were. There was less bombing 1 year ago but they were certainly still dying from diseases and were malnourished.
For anyone watching: I suspect that Linkerbaan is one of the don't-vote-for-Biden shills, and this whole thing is a sort of cosplay of being a pro-Palestinian person. I talked with them at length in another topic, and their responses are just kind of... off.
There are other interpretations. But I noticed yesterday that they were making arguments that didn't make much sense, and didn't even seem to be coming from a place of them believing them themselves, or expecting anyone else to believe them. This comment and this stuff about "heavily target military bases" is a pretty good example. It's just... it's just off. It's weird. I mean, it's obviously not true, but it's also just kind of random in this very particular low-effort way that looks more and more unusual the longer you hold it up to the light and carefully examine it.
Anyway, so then I looked at their user history and I found all sorts of "Trump isn't that bad" "both parties are the same" "blue MAGA" stuff (that's honestly the only real consistent through-line I saw other than "yay Hamas") and it all clicked into place.
I somewhat suspect that the shill accounts tend to pick left-looking causes to rally behind to give themselves some cover, so their history doesn't wind up as just all no-Biden all the time. A month or two ago a lot of them were doing economic issues, and I think now they've shifted to largely pro-Palestinian issues.
Like I say: All speculation. The truth is I have no idea. But, that's my take on it.
For anyone watching ... Like I say: All speculation. The truth is I have no idea.
What a weird rant to share.
Some of us have a lot of experience with Linkerbaan. This person spam comments incessantly like it's a full time job.
Well I dunno, defending Palestinians doesn't sound like spamming to me. I'd call it solidarity.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with defending Palestinians. Based on my interaction with them, Palestinians are the last people Linkerbaan cares about. This is cosplaying online for clout. They are confusing the map with the territory where the aesthetic of signaling support for Palestinians has long ago superseded fostering actual solutions that will improve the lives of Palestinians.
Check out their post history and decide for yourself.
Check out their post history and decide for yourself.
I have, and this is why when you say
This is cosplaying online for clout.
I really don't see what you are referring to.
Because they are extremely selective of the articles they post and highly reactionary / vitriolic when anyone pushes back or challenges their arguments. They also offer zero charitability to any of their interlocutors. They are also ready to label anyone as a) defending genocide b) Zionist c) [insert derogatory label here] faster than you can say 'Hamas'.
They are uneven in their media literacy discernment and extremely selective in what they post/how they present. An opinion blog post that favors Hamas is ok but a UN report that counters a claim by Hamas is placed under the most intense forensic analysis.
In other words, they are here for the cosplay.
Socio-economic gaps between Palestinian and Jewish Israeli citizens are the result of discriminatory policies pursued over decades. Historically, Israel prevented its Palestinian citizens from accessing livelihoods under its 18-year-long military rule, and used them, at different times, as a source of cheap labour in order to preserve the interests of the Jewish majority. In addition to cruel land seizures, other discriminatory policies have led to Palestinians’ social and economic deprivation: the exclusion of Palestinian localities from high priority areas for development, the discriminatory allocation of land and water for agriculture as well as discriminatory planning and zoning, and the failure to implement major infrastructure development projects in Palestinian communities.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
- Amnesty International Report pg 26-27
Other reports about how Israel is an Apartheid State:
B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer
All sounds 100% accurate. (Or, well, it was until they proceeded further than that into outright wholesale slaughter 6-7 months ago.) Did I give the impression that I thought that it was not?
Another thing to note is the volume with which Linkerbaan comments/posts is INSANE. It is for 6-7 hours/day every 15 minutes. It's wild! There is a weird vibe to their comments too. It's never specific enough to respond to pointed topics/arguments and just broad enough to stake out a position.
Why do you claim Hamas is "fighting to achieve peace"? Which of their actions seem to indicate this?
The one where they instantly offer a ceasefire in exchange for all Palestinian hostages.
What does this even mean? Was that the end goal when they instigated October 7?
Because israel was holding Palestinian hostages and turned Gaza into an open air concentration camp and that's not very cool. And israel keeps terrorizing their mosque which is very Islamophobic.
So Hamas asked israel to stop nicely in 2018 with the march to return and israel held a Palestinian kneecap shooting competition.
Israel decided that they don't listen to people that ask nicely. Now we're here.
So what's changed since Oct 7? Was Hamas able to achieve peace and remove the concentration camp conditions or has it worsened?
Yes it's looking like Hamas is going to achieve those objectives.
Sadly because israel is a Nazi state, it's like fighting against the Nazis. People die when you fight against the Nazis.
So, just to circle back to og question: Palestine (or what's left of it) is on track to no longer be a concentration camp and hostages are being released? The conditions for palestinians have improved since Oct 7?
Did living conditions improve for people while they were fighting against the Nazis?
It must be difficult to understand but sometimes thing have to get worse before they get better.
What is a reasonable length of time the Palestinians should endure this strategy? Fighting Nazis during WW2 lasted 6 years. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been going on for almost 100 years.
Has Hamas been able to improve anything using this strategy or has Israel gained an advantage over each intifada / attack in the course of the last 100 years? Who has benefited the most from the current Hamas strategy?
As long as Nazi israel doesn't stop of course.
I am unsure why you are blaming israeli terror on Hamas.
Each time Hamas attacks, Israel retaliates with extreme disproportionate violence and manages to expand settlements aggressively. So far, how would you say Hamas has improved the lives of Palestinians by instigating violence:
[ _ ] Significantly better
[ _ ] About the same
[ _ ] Significantly worse
As a follow up, what is a reasonable period Palestinians should endure Hamas tactics:
[ _ ] One year
[ _ ] Ten years
[ _ ] Another hundred years
Israel is going to keep doing the same shitty aggressive behavior and exploit every attack and thousands of Palestinians die. It's almost like peace is not their primary objective (for either side). Should we keep encouraging Hamas do the same strategy of the past 100 years or should we try something different? What're your thoughts, Link?
What do you mean? The West Bank is being Annexxed. Gaza is not.
Hamas is offering a permanent ceasefire and israel is not.
What hamas has done has never been done before in 100 years. Israel is rapidly losing international support as they are being unmasked for the Nazis they are. The illusion of israel being a civilized society has completely shattered.
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I didn't ask which territory is being annexed.
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I didn't ask about this particular ceasefire for this particular conflict which started Oct 7.
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I didn't ask about Israel gaining or losing international support.
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I didn't ask about the "illusion of civilized society" breaking
Original question, since we're dodging as per usual: Is the tactic by instigating attacks leading to better outcomes overall for Palestinian people?
It's been 100 years of Hamas (and other factions) instigating attacks and each time Israel retaliates with disproportionate violence. 30,000+ Palestinians are dead now. Is the condition in Gaza now:
[ _ ] Significantly better
[ _ ] About the same
[ _ ] Significantly worse
Depends which time you are comparing to. FYI israel colonized Gaza at one point and then people fought back and drove them out.
Continuing the Genocide is a key component stupid Hamas with their permanent ceasefires. 😤