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this post was submitted on 22 May 2024
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I honestly don't know what the hell you're supposed to do in America if a loved one has a psychotic episode and threatens you, because calling the cops for help could be a death sentence for them, but not getting help could be a death sentence for you. Maybe make some sort of plan with neighbors in case something happens? But then you get the neighbors all worried that they're living next to someone who could get dangerously psychotic. I'm not talking about what should be done if things were more ideal, I'm talking about what people with such loved ones should do if it happens today, May 22, 2024. Because it sounds like someone has a good chance of dying no matter what.
You just have to fucking deal with it yourself basically, our social safety net is a bad joke. If you're a minority, neurodivergent, queer, or anything else they decide they don't like, you have a much higher likelihood of literally being murdered by the people who are supposed to help and protect society.
Power and control. To protect and serve the ruling class interests.
Police protect and serve capital and capital only.
Fido ~ Fidon't
I have a family member who had a wellness check called in for her and the cops came in and immediately beat her ass. Don't let these fuckers into your house. Ever.
Never call a wellness check on someone if you aren't cool with them being killed.
Wellness checks are notorious for being lethal, it's absurd.
Like, to a lot of people actually.
It sounds like what it is, Flying. Not a tasty pill to swallow but these are the dues of the division modern society has allowed.
No more Village raising the children. No more respected elders, trusted craft people, or neighborly bonds.
For the illusion of connection and its subsequent gamification and for the enrichment of those who say what we want to hear, these are the dues to be paid.
We live and die alone, bemoaning a loss of bonds that could be mended at any time; let he who is lonely lay their cynicism down first.
No, I don't believe it's that easy (and recognize the risks of being first) but it probably is that simple. No clue how the message is amplified back through time in a manner that gets enough likes though.
Such an insightful comment. /Gen
Sometimes, others share their opinions and lived-in experience not to give you insight, but because to speak is to human. Sonder on that, whatever your generation.
I am aware the oldest writing is of a merchant swindling. I am aware of the atrocities respected elders have carried out against the Village children, all villages.
I am not here to insight you; use your own faculties for that.
You are an arrogant fool. Blah blah blah. BTW the oldest written text is probably the Code of Ur-Nammu. It's not the Complaint tablet to Ea-nāṣir, as I assume you're comment referred to.
I was being genuine. That's what "/gen" means.
I am genuinely sorry I was genuinely a reactionary idiot earlier, but thank you for teaching me a new one!
We had to ride out a number of suicidal episodes and drug overdoses over COVID. I have PTSD from childhood abuse that flared up during the lockdown and PTSD from previous encounters with the police (I was tased and arrested during a welfare check about a decade ago).
Thankfully my gf is good at holding space but it was still very stressful for both of us. And there were a number of times I would have gone to the hospital if I had any faith in the system.
they asked me and others to leave the house when i called (active suicidality and psychosis). i told them we would not, that i was sitting next to him on the floor and two minors were in their rooms nearby. i hoped they would be less likely to do something stupid when they knew there were three other people here and one actively witnessing and close to him.
i think it ensured they were more thoughtful entering my home, and he was calmer when they entered because i remained.
fortunately, i had calmed him enough and taken the weapon that this was even a possibility. i suspect it doesn't hurt that we're white.
You've got to get really fucking friendly with the cops and you've just gotta hope. You want to take your child to the local precinct office and introduce them and their disability to officers in a calm setting and discuss how to deesclate situations... especially if you can talk clearly on certain trigger scenarios and double especially if your child can voice these things himself. Then you've got to hope they create a file on your child and hope they fucking remember this shit if your child goes off.
Written by the step parent to a child with bipolar disorder and autism - though we're in Canada things are extremely similar wrt policing culture up here.
This might work in a smaller town, but this family was in LA. I've never lived there, but I have lived in NYC and I doubt anyone in the precinct would care. They would just file some paperwork and move on to the next thing. There's probably less than a 50/50 shot that the paperwork would be communicated to any officer in a crisis. And back when I lived there in the stone age, that chance would have been zero.
Maybe if your precinct does community policing, it would be beneficial to introduce yourself to any officers you know are local, but that assignment can change on a whim.
Big cities are composed of smaller divisions covered by local precincts - there's still luck involved here but you're really misunderstanding how policing works.
Some places have mobile response teams for mental health issues. Florida has a few programs being piloted right now. They have direct numbers. So, the police are not necessarily involved in reported events.
And that's great, but mentally ill people are everywhere, not just in the places in Florida with pilot programs. There are many ideas with how to deal with this problem in the future. Meanwhile, cops are killing mentally ill people today.
I'm not disagreeing. My comment was solution focused. Some areas have teams set up to help. Not everyone knows about them or even to look for them. So, I was providing information that might lead people to look around for programs that might help.
I mean if you need help, you can always ask a neighbour for help. Would be useful if everyone had a mancatcher pole as well, as messed up as the implications of everyone in society having a mancatcher is.
I can't speak for anyone else, and I am not in this situation myself, thankfully, but I wouldn't know my neighbors well enough to ask them, sad as that is.
I'm in no better spot, but this is the crux of the problem, isn't it - too many of us don't have a strongly-enough bound local community to get assistance with stuff like this without involving the cops.
I mean, every criticism you level at the parents sounds like people worried that if they call police its going to go badly.
I have a severely autistic son. There is literally no circumstance where I would call the police for any event involving him. Unless there is a dead body on the floor, they are not getting a call.
I'm in a weird dichotomy where I need to be sure he knows to trust police in case somehow he's alone and needs help one day, while at the same time realizing that if he gets to that point he's probably fucked, and praying there is never, ever a time where he interacts with police without my wife or I between him and them. I can't say "look for a fireman" or "look for an ambulance" because there isn't always one of them around. But you never have to wait too long to see a cop.
Hopefully if that ever happens, he'll stumble across one of the less trigger-happy ones.
Nearly every single time I have seen someone make this particular excuse for police, a nurse or other staff from a healthcare facility will crop up to point out that they do it all day every day without having to kill people.
true, but in inpatient settings they have tools at their disposal and a context supporting safety that you lack. they have - locked doors, lots of people who can be summoned, people trained to restrain, injectable medication. probably other stuff i'm not thinking about. there's likely also an increased understanding of that person's issues, level of risk, and current medication and sobriety. even several hours of observation plus a secure environment gives staffers an advantage police lack.
so i work in mental health. it is very likely that i will have to call police on a client at some point. i have training that works well in some circumstances, but there are limits. i have, in fact, been one of the people here on lemmy that has pointed out people working with others with mental illness and disability manage things without guns.
i think police need training to work with people like this and to de-escalate in general. i think i lot of them need treatment for their own PTSD. i think they fucked up here.
but i don't think it's realistic either to think that they can, in practice, handle things the same way a nurse with many years of experience and additional tools can. and i would also point out that many social workers (not my profession but related, just the last field i saw stats on) have been assaulted by their clients.
i think the parents could have handled it better. i think it's possible cultural attitudes toward mental illness or other factors unique to the family played a part in their decision-making.
and as another parent of a person with developmental disability (plus serious mental illness), i think it is wise to prepare yourself and your child for how you might handle circumstances in which you or someone else needs to call for help. i don't think it is safest for your child or for you (or others, obviously) for you to refuse to call until there is a body.
but i also understand that your experience and your child are not the same as mine.
i just wish the cops hadn't fucked up, and i wish the family had done it differently. for all the good that does.
edit - extra words, a wrong word
Man a little hyperbole brings out all the haters. 🙂
All your points are reasonable. But I have to weigh all other factors against the likelihood that cops are going to show up and harm or kill my child unnecessarily.
Are there actually other circumstances where I'd call police? Probably. Is it MY fault that I need to do this calculus about whether the folks paid to help might kill my child instead? No, it's not, and I won't apologize for it.
no, you shouldn't have to do that calculus. but i want your kid to be okay if it ever comes to that.
Fair! And we agree on that bit for sure!
Fair, but I go back to my original comment. Possibly the parents would have behaved differently if they had any faith the police would have. As it turns out, the police didn't, they did what every parent of a special needs child fears.
Sure, OK, you have found a corner case. Bravo, I guess? We can pretend I was using the modern definition of the word "literally." 😉
It doesn't change the overall point.
Here's a hypothetical for you, which is far more likely than your own for an autistic kid. My son doesn't even have the concept of holding someone hostage, and I venture to guess this is true for lots of others on the spectrum.
Let's say he has a knife in his hand because that's what he happened to have in his hand (somehow) when his fight or flight mechanism was triggered, and now he's massively overstimulated, and in a meltdown. He's not trying to hurt anyone (I'm not convinced he knows stabbing someone is an option a knife provides), but he's waving it around because he is very active with his arms when he's overstimulated, and he might even try to grapple with someone while holding it, again not really recognizing the potential for great harm. It's going to be a real challenge to get it from him safely, and someone could get badly injured.
Do I call the cops in that circumstance? Not if I want to see him sans-bulletholes again. (Not a direct example of what I described, but close enough for these purposes.)
Edited to add - I read the story in OP, or I read about Linden Cameron, or I read about Elijah McClain (and others) and that's my son there, or may as well be. Elijah McClain especially - heartbreaking. Nothing about any of those circumstances seems like an outcome I couldn't imagine with any given group of police. I have no faith that more than a vanishingly small percentage would even see the problem with how these situations were handled, let alone try to do it differently.
I kinda took it as a bit of a strawman, even if unintentional. That's why I contrasted with a more reasonable one.
I appreciate that your intent is not to defend police regarding OP or in general. However, as I said elsewhere, are there actually other circumstances where I’d call police? Probably. My original statement was (slightly) hyperbolic.
However, is it MY fault that I need to do this calculus about whether the folks paid to help might kill my child instead? No, it’s not, and I won’t apologize for it.
Police have earned their reputation.
If I can't count on them to help without killing me or people I love needlessly, I'm not going to call them. I would think anyone, even a cop, would understand this fundamental requirement.
I'm sorry for the sad ending to your story, but glad that there were opportunities for joy along the way. These situations are tough, I get it.
I'd try to be understanding with the parents, but I admit family waiting too long is a problem. I remember watching this video and getting frustrated at every missed opportunity...