this post was submitted on 27 Apr 2024
311 points (91.7% liked)

Men's Liberation

1844 readers
1 users here now

This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.


Rules

Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people


Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.



Be productive


Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.

Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:

  • Build upon the OP
  • Discuss concepts rather than semantics
  • No low effort comments
  • No personal attacks


Assume good faith


Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.



No bigotry


Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.



No brigading


Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.



Recommended Reading

Related Communities

!feminism@beehaw.org
!askmen@lemmy.world
!mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Makhno@lemmy.world 66 points 6 months ago (18 children)

Tbf, some feminists do hate men.

[–] Zorque@kbin.social 84 points 6 months ago (20 children)

Some black people commit crimes. Some asian people are bad drivers. Some hispanics are illegal immigrants coming to steal your jobs.

If you judge everything based on a minority example, everyone around you is gonna have a bad time.

load more comments (20 replies)
[–] fsxylo@sh.itjust.works 35 points 6 months ago (3 children)

They used to just be on the Internet, but that brainrot is reaching gen z. Half of my younger female coworkers openly talk shit about men.(then pull the "oh I don't mean you" card when I give them the side eye. Like that's less offensive)

[–] 5ibelius9insterberg@feddit.de 10 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

If the possibility that a man will treat a woman badly (everything between belittling and straight up murder) is high enough, it is a life insurance to expect every man to be dangerous until proven otherwise. Its the same logic as "don't talk to cops".

I've seen other men giving me answers to questions my wife asked to many times. Of course thats not dangerous, but thats still asshole-behaviour and you can recognise a whole lot of this behaviour everyday, if you just listen to your female coworkers instead of giving them the side eye. They probably wouldn't feel the need to "not-you" you, if they KNEW you are not a possible asshole.

[–] ashenblood@sh.itjust.works 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

If the possibility that a man will treat a woman badly (everything between belittling and straight up murder) is high enough, it is a life insurance to expect every man to be dangerous until proven otherwise. Its the same logic as "don't talk to cops".

No, it's not life insurance. It's pathological paranoia that doesn't effectively improve one's safety. If you go through life with an incredibly simplistic model of judgement, where any interaction with men or cops is dangerous until proven otherwise, you are simply trading one set of risks for another. There are many situations where a certain cop or man could be in a position to help or protect you, and you might fail to recognize that.

If you're not making any distinction between "belittling and straight up murder", then you're really just handicapping your ability to distinguish people who are actually violently dangerous from people who are just normal people. Most people act like assholes on a regular basis, but that doesn't make them dangerous.

[–] punkisundead 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Most people act like assholes on a regular basis, but that doesn't make them dangerous.

That doesnt sound normal.

[–] ashenblood@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

You're implying that the social environment that I was born into is dysfunctional, and also completely disregarding the substance of my comment. In other words, you're being a condescending prick. Case in point.

It's nearly impossible to be sympathetic and polite to every single person you encounter. Especially due to the state of the world today.

[–] punkisundead 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

You're implying that the social environment that I was born into is dysfunctional,

arent you saying that yourself?

It's nearly impossible to be sympathetic and polite to every single person you encounter. Especially due to the state of the world today

And to the point of your other comment: It actually is dangerous to encounter to constantly encounter people that act like assholes because of your identity. This shit can be traumatic and I dont think its useful to call that not dangerous.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The fear of men is vastly over exaggerated. Men are still far more likely to be assaulted or murdered than women. Even when women are attacked, it's rarely a stranger.

[–] 5ibelius9insterberg@feddit.de 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Well... if the fear of man is exaggerated, who is committing those assaults?

[–] metaldream@sopuli.xyz 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It’s usually family members or acquaintances, not strangers.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 4 points 6 months ago

The funniest form of this rampant underlying bigotry is transdudes recognizing something got easier because they pass.

[–] Bobmighty@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Tons of men I've known endlessly talk shit about women. It's a standard feature of our species to talk shit about the opposite gender. It's a standard of our species to talk shit in general really.

[–] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 20 points 6 months ago

Talking shit about a person is one thing, grouping people into categories and denigrating or dehumanizing the whole category is another.

I'm not saying either are good, but the whole grouping people and creating an us vs them attitude is very harmful to society. Much more than talking shit about Joe because he's being a dick. There are very few situations where it's useful such as when one group by its definition harms the other, such as slave owners, corporate executives with a fiduciary duty for profit over employees and customers, etc... In any situation where there is nuance it's best to avoid making groups.

Hate misandry or misogyny without projecting it as a feature common to all men or women or feminists even if you feel a large portion of them exhibit that feature.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago

Tons of men I’ve known endlessly talk shit about women.

Which is also fucking gross and shouldn't be tolerated.

[–] arin@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

They don't realize they are being sexist

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 13 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm sure some do, but I've seen more examples of feminists who hate certain subsets of women then I have ones who hate men.

[–] 5ibelius9insterberg@feddit.de 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)
[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I do find the idea of saying TERFs come across as stupid as some absurd Monty Python characters delightful.

But on the other hand, John Cleese has shared some transphobic views in the past, so using his work may not hurt the TERFs' feelings as hoped.

[–] 5ibelius9insterberg@feddit.de 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Maybe thats a good example for "the author is dead"? I know about Cleese's views, but I think this joke is funny in itself.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

My problem isn't per se in the fact that Cleese is transphobic, it's the fact that saying to a transphobe "hey, you're like this moronic character that was created by a transphobe" might be taken as a compliment by said transphobes, and so not have the intended effect.

[–] 5ibelius9insterberg@feddit.de 5 points 6 months ago

I don't know if this would be the case (not because I disagree, but because I literally do not know) but I think I get your point now.

[–] exocrinous@startrek.website 6 points 6 months ago

The People's Front of Judea respected Loretta's gender identity. They're better than TERFs

[–] punkisundead 7 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Interestingly, across six experiments conducted in nine nations and almost 10,000 participants, the results revealed that feminist women show no more hostility toward men than both non-feminists and other men. It turns out that just about everyone, including men, has a fair amount of hostility toward men.

You are technically correct. Its just not a fact that matters when engaging with feminism in a way that is based on good faith.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] TheFriar@lemm.ee 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

This is true, but it’s just like how the alt-right morphed. With the internet these days, and with social media more specifically, there are these identities wherein people try to out-____ each other: out-“leftist” each other, out-“conservative” each other, etc. So, with feminism, people wanted to “out feminist” the other feminists. For strangers. On the internet. To think they’re more hardcore. It’s fuckin dumb, but it’s fuckin everywhere, and within every ideology. You think women deserve equal rights? Well I believe women deserve REPARATIONS! You think women deserve reparations? Well, I hate MEN!

Similarly: “you think we should stop immigration? Well I think we should kill all non whites!

No ideology is immune. I’ve seen it in every circle.

There will always be idiots, trying to claim an ideology for their own image, and who utterly misunderstand the idea itself. To be fair, though, some of those people just have really personal reasons for being drawn to an idea in the first place, and their emotions get the best of them. However, that doesn’t excuse the behavior. Because racists use the same logic. “I was robbed by black men…BLACK MEN ARE ALL CRIMINALS!” It’s boiler plate prejudice. Those feminists that hate men are falling into the same trap as racists. They generalize and slip under the current of hate. Now, it’s hard to start at the same place, because feminism has some logical backbone while racism doesn’t. But the catalyst is the same: prejudice and hate.

Yeah, some feminists hate men, but they’re small minded people who like the concept of claiming an ideology for themselves and who bastardize and undercut the goals. It’s sad, but it’s true. And it’s everywhere. The problem with it is that people who dislike the original, sound idea, will use those idiots as effigies to paint the entire idea with the worst brush available. It’s a shame.

[–] Theharpyeagle@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I hate it, I consider myself a feminist because I want to claw the term back, not give it up to some assholes. It's feminist to give men grace and understanding because vulnerability isn't a feminine trait, it's a human one. It's feminists to demand paternity leave because new mothers shouldn't be carrying the entire weight of child rearing along with a job while men are obligated to miss formative years of their child's existence. Etc, etc

I wish I could push that message and blot out all the genuine misandrists (who almost invariably are also transphobic), but it's an uphill battle when the assholes on the other side only give voice to those people to prove their point.

load more comments (13 replies)