this post was submitted on 11 Mar 2024
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It’s potentially offensive when people say men and females, which is often why it comes up online. Using either male or female as a noun is dehumanizing, in that it’s not commonly used to refer to people, but mostly animals (law enforcement and military use them as nouns, but they’re also intentionally distancing themselves from the people in reports).
Basically, “women” feels weird for a lot of English speakers, but “girls” sounds creepy, so they try for something else. Just go with women, 99% of the time, it’s perfectly fine
It's mostly this, I would say. But in general there's a valid context to use male/female and another valid context to use man/woman or girl/boy or lady/gentleman.
Most people are not going to hold someone speaking English as a second language to task over it. But if you're speaking natively, there's no real excuse not to know when it is right to use the correct term.
But that's just my own opinion.
Why does it feel weird? (not a native speaker here)
Because there’s no good equivalent to “guys” for women, and women often feels too old/formal. If I’m talking about a group of 19 year olds, then they are women and men (and there’s no good word for NB adults, other than “adults,” that I can think of, either), but 19 year olds still feel younger than women and men. “Guy” is any age and denotes a peer or relaxed relationship, but “woman” and “man” don’t have those connotations. I would talk about the man who works at the bank and the guy who works at the coffee shop, as an indicator of familiarity, if that helps. If you speak a language with a formal you and an informal you, it feels like a similar distinction to me, though those are also all different.
“Guys” can refer to groups of women, and I definitely call my sisters guys, but if you talk about “a guy,” it isn’t gender neutral where I’m from.
“Lady” singular denotes age, but not formality, though the formality difference between “lady” and “ladies” is hard (I could absolutely see someone saying “some lady was an absolute asshole at the gas station today,” but “two ladies were absolute assholes at the gas station,” is weird).
Gals is the term that matches guys, but it seems like it fell out of favor when women was promoted as a response to the use of girls in a negative way to describe women (adults) in an infantilizing way. Like it was common to say men's sports and girls sports in the same way that incels use men and females.
FYI: Ladies goes with lords, as in lords and ladies.
I know gal is considered an equivalent, but the only people I’ve ever known to use it were Girl Scout leaders and square dance callers, so it doesn’t feel at all equivalent to me. I don’t know if this is widespread and/or why the word never gained as much traction as “guy,” but I definitely don’t enjoy being called a gal. It feels infantilizing and othering to me, like when people say “and dudettes!”
Interestingly, gal comes from “girl,” whereas guy comes from guy fawkes. I would have made a very unwise bet that “guy” was older.
Terms for the sexes/genders are treated differently. In the US, the only term I can think of that has been used derogatively for men is 'boy', and only in the context of racism for disparaging adult men who are black.
On the other side, most of the terms have been used negatively in different contexts. Women were often called girls to infantilize them. Gals was used to avoid formality. 'Ladies of the night' spoiled the term ladies because of the association with prostitution.
On the flip side a boys club isn't disparagingly to infantilize men, as shown in the song 'The boys are back in town'. A girls night out is generally not seen as a negative, but calling women's sports in college girl's sports is while men's sports tend to just be called sports.
So while there are exceptions, other terms for men terms tend to not be used negatively like other terms for women do and that is why women's terms tend to fall out of favor over time while men's stick around.
This is why I love the word “y’all”
Thanks!
woman reads as "wo-man"
women reads as "we-men"
English is weird. I blame the British.
While we're at it, loose and lose. Somehow taking away an o makes the vowel sound longer and makes the consonant voiced?
Contextual irregularities.
There's a loss connection in there that ties into it.
Very mish-mash sort of stuff, eh?
Just say ladies. That's polite.
I’m torn here. It’s a good way for me to talk about my peers (early thirties) in the third person, but it doesn’t quite fit for second person for me. (Edit: ”guy” is also not great for second person, now that I think about it, so maybe it’s more equivalent than I realized. Though for plural third person, it still isn’t 1:1, imo. “Two guys in my class” has a different connotation from “two ladies in my class,” but I can’t put my finger on why.)
“Ladies” feels formal/salesy (if someone addresses a group of women I’m in as “ladies,” it feels like they’re either a server for our group dinner or trying to quickly build rapport) to me, whereas “lady” can often feel straight up rude ( “hey, lady!” sounds like Bart Simpson said it vs. “hey, ladies!” which could mean so many different things depending on the context, but seems less annoyed at least).
While generally true, there are some people from older generations that associate ladies with prostitution as in 'ladies of the night' and find it offensive.
Yes, I have known quite a few and they are in their 60s to 80s right now.
What about when specifying the gender of your friend? "My woman friend" sounds really weird to me. I usually say, "my female friend" because it sounds more natural, but I don't want to sound like an incel/misogynist.
For what it's worth, I say "my male friend" as well.
Nonono, it’s always okay to use it as an adjective, so that’s fine!
As a non-native speaker I find woman more offensive than female. Noun male/female puts all as equal. Girls, boys, birds, ponies. Woman, though, seems to be de-attached. Especially when talking about humankind it’s common to refer to humans as just „man”. „No man been there”, „for all mankind”, „dog is a man’s best friend”. As it applies to man only and woman doesn’t count
This just seems women are more touchy about this stuff then men.
Someone called me out on reddit for using the word girls for women and it was sexist because it is infantising, and it was stupid because they were making out I don't call men boys. When I absoultely do, in fact I do it more than the alternative. Really the only way I was sexist on that is that I don't do it as much as I do with men so if anything I should do it more.
But you can't win, someone's always going to be offended