this post was submitted on 28 Feb 2024
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Just a reminder that it's still February, people.

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[–] Sekoia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Those last two points are just doomerism that is either

  1. Wrong and actively unhelpful, you're discouraging people from helping
  2. Right and useless since all it does is spread negativity. If it's all over, why make it worse for people?
[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I don't want to be a doomer, but I do kind of feel like climate change is going to get worse and worse and we will pay a terrible price.

I'm not one of those "civilization will end" types, but I think there will be a lot more refugees and a lot more war. If the Himalayan ice caps melt, a lot of Asia is very fucked.

[–] Sekoia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

There's a pretty big difference between "it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better", and "it's already over, we're all fucked".

The original comment presents things poorly: we are past several "points of no return", but saying the point of no return implies there's nothing to be done.

Additionally the last point is... pretty much entirely wrong. We have absolutely made significant and noticeable progress against climate change. It's not enough yet, but it's absolutely not nothing.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I understand that. I'm just suggesting that doomers might not be 100% wrong because I think a lot of bad stuff is going to happen, so we shouldn't just dismiss dire predictions entirely.

I just don't think this will be the end of our species or even human civilization everywhere. But in some places? Quite possibly.

[–] Sekoia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Yeah I agree, I just don't call "stuff's gonna be bad" doomerism (it's pretty clear at this point). I call "this is the end and there's nothing we can do" doomerism.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago

Ok, fair enough.

[–] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If everyone's living in refugee and migrant camps, how is that not a collapse of civilization?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Well, for one thing, the vast majority of civilization does not depend on the Himalayas for water. But many people do.

[–] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Climate change and global warming are not localized to the Himalayas.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago

Okay? I still never said everyone would live in refugee and migrant camps...

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I’m not specifically saying that suddenly the planet is going to swallow up humanity as a whole. But, as you said — climate refugees — plus an uncertain food and water supply, and disastrous weather are going to cause humanity to fight amongst themselves. We will end up destroying ourselves to “survive.”

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I think there will be plenty of places where life will go on without everyone having to till the soil. But there will be a lot more death and pain.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The death and pain will come from the people in bad areas attacking those in the good ones.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That is not something you can predict with any certainty. That may happen and it may not. We can't know at this point. But there will definitely be a price paid for our continued fossil fuel use.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Based on what you know of humanity and its history, where would you place your bet?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I do not pretend to know the future.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I’m not asking you be clairvoyant. I’m asking you to make an educated guess on the outcome of humanity based on what you know about humanity.

You can refuse, but just say you’re refusing.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

What I know about humanity is that we spent the vast amount of our history as small bands of nomadic hunter-gatherers, so any prediction you make is based on a very tiny fraction of our history.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Tiny, but important. Question still stands.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The answer to the question is that civilization is an unnatural state for humanity to be in, so it is too unpredictable at present. And since there has never been a global civilization collapse, in part because there has never been a global threat like this and in part because the world has never been globalized like this, we are in completely unknown territory.

[–] andyburke@fedia.io 3 points 8 months ago

You are the correct one here, I think tsonfeir is maybe trying to riddle you or something: the truth is at some point the sun will extend out beyond Earth and any civilization left here will die out, human or otherwise?

Not sure why that is that interesting to them or why they are demanding you say it.

[–] muntedcrocodile@lemmy.world -1 points 8 months ago

Moat people in the first world will be fine at the small cost of thousands of dead poor people. But then again never mind the poor people.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)
  • Right, and with little proof to say otherwise. Climate scientists outside of fund-raising organizations and profit publications aren’t too optimistic.

  • I’m not going to sugar coat reality just because a person wants to believe everything is going to get better.

We are fucked. Don’t be delusional. Focus on how we can best handle the inevitable disaster, instead of ignoring it and not making a plan for humanity to adapt as much as it can—in time.

[–] PlantJam@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago (4 children)

Things will absolutely get better. After the inevitable disaster, of course, and we may not be here to see it, but they will get better.

[–] Rhaedas@kbin.social 1 points 8 months ago

Better is a very relative term. A ramp up to a hothouse Earth will be better for exotherms to spread out more. Doesn't work well for most other species still here now.

If it was just humans that were impacted, then I'd be sad about the lost potentials we may have had, but be fine with life going on for the rest. The crime is that we're dragging down just about everything else with us.

[–] Rhaedas@kbin.social 1 points 8 months ago

Better is a very relative term. A ramp up to a hothouse Earth will be better for exotherms to spread out more. Doesn't work well for most other species still here now.

If it was just humans that were impacted, then I'd be sad about the lost potentials we may have had, but be fine with life going on for the rest. The crime is that we're dragging down just about everything else with us.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago

You can't predict that for sure. Things did not get better 65 million years ago for a lot of species. But it's possible things will get better for us.

[–] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Humanity won’t be here to see it, but yes… there will still be a planet after human influence is washed away.

[–] PlantJam@lemmy.world 2 points 8 months ago

That's exactly the point I was making.