As of last week, the number of prisoners in Israeli jails numbered some 19,372, an increase of over 3,000 since October and significantly more than the maximum prison population of 14,500 mandated by law.

(I'm quoting Times of Israel but I don't want to link them in any form, you can find that if you want to.)

Here's another figured from them

Amid the war in the Gaza Strip, the IDF has called up a total of 287,000 reservists

The total prison capacity is 14.500, and it's already overflowing.

Even if every 50th IDF reservist or conscript refuses to go, it's still 6000 people more for them to deal with. If every tenth conscript/reservist refused, it'd be twice the total prison capacity on top of the already problematically overflowing prisons.

Swamp the system.

So even a tiny majority refusing to go and instead choosing prison over participating in genocide can have a huge impact, indirectly.

[–] kibiz0r@midwest.social 12 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I think refusers go to military prison, not regular prison.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Well at least here in Finland, where we also have conscription, you go to a normal prison and serve six months (or at least it used to be 6months, the same as the shortest conscription time). And I'd like to note that there are several options for conscription. Full military service, unarmed military service (you serve in the military but don't have to touch weapons, you'll be a backline logistics guy or some such) and civil service, which is a bit longer, but you never serve in the military (essentially you work in an old people's home or something for 13 months).

For one, we don't have a "military prison", as that's an actual prison operated by the military. Israel does have them though. Or one with several detention centers.

Secondly, because when conscripts refuse conscription, they're still civilians, as they've not been conscripted.

This one was about a reservist, so it's probably different.

However, going by the stats on...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_military_prison

... I think the numbers might've been in the figures I mentioned (compare the occupancy numbers) and because a lot of the prisoners were prisoners of war, who go to these military prisons.

My point is that while a majority opposition to the war seems unlikely, getting 1/10th, 1/20th, or even 1/50th (=2%) of people refusing like the brave woman in the article, there'd be massive issues for the Israeli prison system.

They already started trying to lift regulations of the conditions in the prisons, so they could shove them even fuller.

Well I'll forgo my dislike of linking this bullshit "news source", so we can all be on the same page, more or less.. No pun intended.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jails-running-out-of-room-due-to-war-prison-service-warns/

Eighty-four percent of those classified as security prisoners are currently living in an area of under three square meters in size, less than the legal limit, and 3,000 prisoners are now sleeping on mattresses on the floor rather than in beds.

This situation is potentially dangerous and “my biggest fear is that we will lose control over the prisoners in the prisons,” committee chairman MK Zvika Fogel (Otzma Yehudit) warned

They fear the exact problem I'm proposing would be easy-ish to exacerbate.

Last month [Nov -23], in the wake of Hamas’s devastating assault on southern Israel, lawmakers passed a bill allowing the government to declare an “incarceration emergency,” paving the way for the temporary lifting of restrictions on housing conditions for prisoners.

And another article from December:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-extends-israels-incarceration-emergency-as-prisons-near-capacity/

##Knesset extends Israel’s ‘incarceration emergency’ as prisons near capacity

According to the Israel Prison Service, 19,756 people are currently held in Israeli jails and 'within a week or two, we will reach the maximum capacity for prisoners'

They mention the max capacity as 20,000.

And these must be military prisons as well, since I don't think POW's or "security prisoners" would be held in normal prisons.

He added that some 88% of Palestinian prisoners held for terror offenses — commonly known as security prisoners, are living in spaces of “less than three square meters per prisoner.”

Some genocidal right-wing zionist maniac then went on to say how these conditions are "a summer camp" and how "Hamas killers must be kept in the lowest conditions the law allows".

And this is following a security prisoner getting a beat to death.

Anyway thanks for coming to my TED-rant.

[–] FreeFacts@sopuli.xyz 6 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Well at least here in Finland, where we also have conscription, you go to a normal prison and serve six months (or at least it used to be 6months, the same as the shortest conscription time).

That hasn't been the case for ages in Finland. These days you get 6 months of "house arrest" if you refuse conscription. Electronic tagging that is. You are allowed to leave your house to go to the grocery store, to work or to study etc at predetermined and agreed upon times.

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Oh man. Totaalikieltäytyminen is so easy nowadays, god damn.

I served II/09 so it's been a while.

Thanks for the info. Guess the mad bastards managed it then, because I did hang around totari people as well, and that's where I actually learned this idea. Because he had counted prison capacity in Finland and it was something like 1-3% of every batch who would need to say "nope" and they just wouldn't fit into prison anymore.

I really would like to know the details of when this was on the board being discussed.

First good news I've heard today, ty man.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Totaalikieltäytyminen

total refusal. gnarly.

I get that conscription is bad; Finland doesn't (to my knowledge) have a history of feeding conscripts into wars. Do you mind discussing why you avoided it? just curious. I joined the mil to pay for edu, which is one of the primary intake paths for US soldiers. Always looked at it as a gamble but it mostly paid off for me, except hearing loss lol.

edit: derp, you served. doh - uh, the people you hung out with? what were their feelings I guess

[–] Dasus@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I didn't?

Also, that is the direct translation, yes, but a more accurate (context wise) would be conscientious objector.

I'm a supply core NCO in the reserves, served 362 days. I went in the second batch of 2009. That's why I said "I served II/09"

I don't think conscription is bad at all. It was one of the best years of my life.

Especially because ours is very much flexible and has options like unarmed service or civil service. (And with Russia neighbouring us with a long border, a conscription army is needed.) The only thing is that currently it only applies to males (and you can be excused for several reasons, like being a Jehova's witness). It's flexible when you do your conscription as well. Many people go to uni before the army. Not most, but many. And if you're for instance a competitor in a sport on a high level, you'll can get lots of free days from the time you serve. Some people like Kimi Räikkönen or Jarkko Nieminen for instance did "serve" their conscription, but in reality it was them going in for a few days/weeks every now and then when they had the time.

I would've never joined the American military, had I been American.

I believe in defending my country, not attacking others.

[–] FreeFacts@sopuli.xyz 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

For me, I also served my full time in the Finnish army because I was a coward. Back then, in the year 2000, they still put you in actual prison. (Well, minimum security one where convicts are allowed to work and study outside the facility on weekdays, but still prison). But even bigger deterrent than that was the lie that future employer would not hire you if you did not go through military service. That was a complete lie, it is actually illegal for them to ask about your service, and I haven't included my military service record voluntarily either in my CV since the early 2000s and nobody has cared. And there is also a law which dictates that if you are sentenced as conscientious objector ("totaalikieltäytyminen"), that does not go to your criminal record, so that stays clean as well.

But why I was contemplating refusing military service, and civilian service too, was and is completely ideological. I do wish to protect and fight for the good things in this country (democracy, civil liberties, equality) against outside invader (which would obviously be Russia, and they have none of those things), but the fact that conscription is forced labour without pay just doesn't fit right with me. It's basically slavery, and that should be opposed, always, everywhere.

[–] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

forced labour without pay

whoa that's a new one for me. our conscripts still got paid when drafted, even if it was very little for the danger faced. No pay at all!?

appreciate the insights! thanks

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 9 points 8 months ago

Which aren't equipped to handle a significant enough mass influx of people refusing to participate in a genocide either.