this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2023
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adjectivenounnr at 2023-07-05 10:09:17+00:00 ID:
jqqmpgiIt’s my risk to take. Alcohol is also not risk free. But it’s nowhere near hard drugs, and regulating it as such is a colossal waste of police resources
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 10:13:20+00:00 ID:
jqqn0drIt's not your risk to take for the same reason it's not your risk to take if you want to drive 300kmh on public roads. The government has an obligation to protect the rest of society from you, and it's also the government that directs tax money to drugrelated crime, and healthcare and welfare for people who can't work because of drug use.
granistuta at 2023-07-05 12:37:01+00:00 ID:
jqqzxyvWhy do you compare using cannabis to risking the lives of other people by speeding on public roads?
How do I risk peoples lives if I sit in my couch watching a nature documentary, eating a fruit salad, and using cannabis?
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 12:40:37+00:00 ID:
jqr0c1gYou fund crime, for starters. You become less productive and more likely to develop mental illness and to stop working, which is a burden for society. Same applies to public roads, the more people who don't follow rules, the more we have to pay to enforce rules and for healthcare.
granistuta at 2023-07-05 12:57:48+00:00 ID:
jqr2alzYou don't have to fund crime, legalize it and you will fund healthcare and schools instead. Or you can grow your own, or you can get your cannabis from friends who grow.
Why would you become less productive just because you use cannabis?
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 13:02:51+00:00 ID:
jqr2vo7You're not aware of the statistics regarding school/work performance, sick leave and unemployment?
frisomenfogel at 2023-07-05 10:36:45+00:00 ID:
jqqosd6What a tired, false analogy.
Just like prohibition is a tired, false solution to a complex problem which will never be solved by prohibition.
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 10:38:40+00:00 ID:
jqqoxtzThat's the most tired argument of all, "people are going to do it anyway". Same goes for physical violence.
frisomenfogel at 2023-07-05 10:59:53+00:00 ID:
jqqqo6tWell, at least it's an argument grounded in reality while yours is not.
I agree that you should be somewhat protected from my physical violence, but that's not what were talking about, is it? To me your argument sounds more like you should be somewhat protected from self-harm, which would be fine - if the current legislation were reflective of this position, which it is not.
Legalize it, problem solved.
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 11:12:32+00:00 ID:
jqqrr4bLegislation protects individuals from self harm and society from costs associated with cannabis
granistuta at 2023-07-05 12:40:45+00:00 ID:
jqr0cjyHow?
The law does not have a great effect on how many there are that uses cannabis, and we still have costs from the minority that develop problematic use. Yet we don't get any of the income as we don't tax cannabis sales.
We also get the costs of trying to police those who use and those who sell cannabis, and the violence that comes with gangs trying to protect their turf (and all the spiraling revenge killings).
Criminalization is surely a lot more costly than legalization.
frisomenfogel at 2023-07-05 11:22:23+00:00 ID:
jqqsly3If it were so, Sweden would have a comparatively good record on t.ex. overdoses. Do we, really?
On that same premise, do you think we should outlaw sugar, alcohol and nicotine?
Current legislation is more realistically a huge cost, funneling money to black-market gangs and hopeless policing.
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 11:31:56+00:00 ID:
jqqtgrnWeigh it against the cost for harm caused by narcotics, 40bn or so. I do think we should regulate sugar, alcohol and nicotine, but i don't think they're comparable since they're firmly part of our culture - at least sugar and alcohol. Overdoses are outliers, the bulk of this is sick leave/unemployment, therapy, quality of life, social difficulties.
adjectivenounnr at 2023-07-05 10:18:04+00:00 ID:
jqqnctnGive me an example of cannabis use leading to societal problems worse than the societal problems caused by alcohol.
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 10:46:47+00:00 ID:
jqqpldzAlcohol has nothing to do with it, "alcohol is worse" isn't an argument.
builder_m at 2023-07-05 10:55:26+00:00 ID:
jqqqazpIt became an argument the moment you tried to use "the government needs to protect from the dangers of weed". You're a hypocrite if you don't want to ban alcohol as well.
Gov would get tax money if they legalized and REGULATED instead of having to spend tax money on petty drug crime. Science isn't on your side, either.
adjectivenounnr at 2023-07-05 11:19:11+00:00 ID:
jqqsbvyExactly. You can't argue in favour of weed prohibition unless you also argue in favour of alcohol prohibition. Here's the science: https://www.healthline.com/health/weed-vs-alcohol#long-term-risks
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 11:18:42+00:00 ID:
jqqsafdThe government does regulate alcohol, and tries to prevent abuse through information/education. It's difficult to ban outright because it's part of our culture. Cannabis isn't to the same extent.
Science says people get addicted and suffer brain damage. If you argue that scientists/governments make this up, that's a way of creating a fantasy world where anything that fits your stance goes.
Also note that drug related crimes and illegal trade hasn't gone away in the US.
adjectivenounnr at 2023-07-05 11:22:12+00:00 ID:
jqqslddThat's because the US has (as they typically do) regulated it poorly. A better example is Canada, and specifically Québec, which has in fact reduced drug related crimes, gang revenues, and massively increased tax receipts by legalizing it through a system almost identical to Systembolaget.
builder_m at 2023-07-05 11:31:16+00:00 ID:
jqqteogProhibition cannot, will not and has not stopped substance use. It has only pushed it underground, and made it more dangerous. This is backed by data. I am not saying cannabis is risk free, but the risks are best tackled with regulations, just like with alcohol. Cannabis is also a LOT safer than alcohol, which leaves even less of a reason for it to remain banned.
Research on potential harm, drug use statistics, death count, research on the effects of prohibition policies, historical precedent, all of this supports legalization (or at the very least decriminalisation). Which is what I meant when I called your position unscientific.
Flutterpiewow at 2023-07-05 11:44:38+00:00 ID:
jqqum03Cannabis can't be compared to alcohol like that. There's less research on cannabis, but more importantly comparisons based on physiological effects fail to take cultural context into account. There are norms associated with alcohol, and it's used in places like family dinners and even at work places. This means people are more likely to learn how to manage it appropriately. With cannabis, you're more likely to socialize with people who use it for different purposes and who also use amphetamines etc.
Nobody said prohibition gets rid of anything. There's no support for the idea that it won't stay underground and that the dangerous aspwcts will go away if you legalize it though.