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“A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty”: Biden Becomes Fourth U.S. President to Bomb Yemen
(www.democracynow.org)
this post was submitted on 12 Jan 2024
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Can someone explain to me how this is "A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty"? It seems like these actions are supported by the internationally recognized government in Yemen. (I'm not asking about the validity of these actions, or the horrendous effects of them. Just the sovereignty question)
Also, is this the interviewee? It appears she is a language and literacy assistant professor who happens to be Yemeni American, not an expert on the Yemen war, international law, or anything else relevant to these events.
It is in no way a breach of Yemeni authority. th government has no control over the territory in question, and it is being used to make repeated military strikes against US military and international civilian targets. This is entirely legal and justified under both US and international law. I’m just surprised it took this long.
If a government has no control over the populated regions of a country how can anyone reasonably consider it a legitimate government?
There are plenty of legitimate governments - and to be clear, by “legitimate” we usually mean the government recognized by the international community, whether or not any given people think they’re good guys or whatever - who do not control all of the territory they claim.
The point is that if a territory is under control of a foreign or rebel group and is attacking international civilian or military assets, then the international community can respond if the country that has claims to the territory cannot. I’m not even sure that the Yemeni government is in a position to coordinate strikes at this point, but that would be the standard approach otherwise.
If the Proud Boys took over south Texas and started launching military attacks against Mexican military facilities, and the US government was unable to stop them, Mexico and the international community would be within their legal rights to stop them.
It’s the US and the UK that are carrying out the bombings here. They alone do not constitute the international community. They do not have the right to determine what entities are sovereign or not.
As far as Ansar Allah goes, they control most of Yemen including the capital. It’s a farce to pretend they’re some breakaway rebel group and not the de facto government.
The civilian shipping lines that were attacked without provocation were and are part of the international community, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. In addition, US military vessels were directly and repeatedly attacked, which international law permits as deserving of a military response. The US would be within its rights to start an attack using tomahawks as well as loitering drones over the territory to hit vehicles and personnel.
The US and Saudi Arabia tried to just that for the last decade and failed while killing thousands of civilians in the process. Maybe it’s time to try actually negotiating.
Yemen doesn't control the Houthi territory.
Houthi territory is in green. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)#/media/File%3AYemeni_Civil_War.svg
Ansar Allah movement controls the territory where 80% of Yemeni population lives and enjoys mass public support. The fact that burger empire and its vassals refuse to recognize sovereignty and right to self determination of other nations just further exposes the moral bankruptcy of the west.
Do you mean the US attacks are supported by tye Yemen government? Do you have a source for that handy?
And great investigation into the interviewee, that kind of critical thinking is extremely important.
The internationally recognized government does not have control over the populated regions of the country. It’s a farce to pretend they represent the Yemeni people.
That's not really an answer to my question. "Control" does not get you sovereignty, and neither does "representing the people". It comes down to governance and international recognition. Mexican cartels control large areas of the country, but no one is arguing they have sovereignty. Similarly, there are many repressive regimes in the world that do not represent their people, but they maintain their sovereignty.
The issue is that the sovereignty of nation states is a somewhat nonsensical idea that has little to no solid philosophical backing. Nations aren’t living things and shouldn’t have rights in the same way people have. They are imaginary constructs, and the consequences of this are inevitable debates over what is or is not a nation. But there is no clear dividing line or definition—and in this ambiguity, powerful nations are free to recognize or ignore nations as they choose.
If you support the US action, you can claim that the Houthis are not a sovereign nation, the action was at the invitation of the legitimate government of this region against an terrorist organization, and was entirely legal and justified.
If you oppose the action, you claim that Houthis are a group of freedom fighters who have established a new separate nation that should be recognized, and this action was an illegal violation of that newfound sovereignty.
Neither can be said to be completely correct or incorrect because there is no solid basis for this idea of sovereignty.
That doesn't answer my question either. I wasn't the one who brought up sovereignty, it was the article. It seems to ridiculous to say, this is “A Breach of Yemeni Sovereignty” but no one seems to able to assert the Houthis have sovereignty to start with.
None of which matters as the Houthis committed Acts of War and were idiots not to accept this would be the response when flat out told it would be.
I look at it more like this.
If you treat the Houthis as a non-sovereign entity, they can be attacked freely under international law by the international community as pirates.
If you treat the Houthis as a sovereign entity, they can be attacked under international law by affected nations as the attacks can be interpreted as an act of war.
So it doesn't really matter if they are sovereign or not.
It matters because if the Houthis are a non-sovereign entity, then POTUS can order an attack under prior congressional approvals. However, if they are a Sovereign State, then attacking them would be an act of war, requiring congressional approval.
If the issue is with American law instead of international law, then you need to use the American list of recognized sovereign nations. Does the USA recognize the Houthis as leading a sovereign nation?
Your analogy falls flat because, while powerful, cartels are rarely looking to supplant state control. Instead they seek state complicity which is a different thing altogether.
Ansar Allah on the other hand has set up its own governance structures. As I said, most of the populated regions of Yemen are governed under these structures. That’s despite a US backed campaign to bomb and starve them out over most of the last decade.
If the US doesn’t want to recognize the sovereignty of the Ansar Allah led Yemeni government then the US concept of sovereignty is effectively meaningless.
No matter how hard you stamp your feet, you don't get to redefine terms already in use.
I’m not? The US is using an incoherent notion of sovereignty that just so happens to align with their geopolitical interests. Sorry if that’s a hard truth for you to accept.
And they reaped what they sowed. Sorry if that’s a hard truth for you to accept.
You’re acting as if the US just has to bomb people like it’s a law of nature. So absurd lol
Nope, the US simply shall bomb anyone that threatens their economy sufficiently. Gets proven a whole bunch.
Okay, what about IS? Did they have Sovereignty?
If you/anyone else thinks sovereignty is meaningless, that's fine but it's not what I asked about. My original question was how is this "A breach of sovereignty"? You don't seem to be arguing why it is a breach of sovereignty.
Again that’s a terrible analogy. ISIS was an international insurgency that went so far as to explicitly reject the very concept of modern day nation states. Of course they didn’t deserve to be treated as a sovereign power.
Conversely Ansar Allah is a domestic organization. It’s commonly referred to as the Houthi movement because it has many leaders who are Houthis, a Yemeni tribe. They rose to power after the previous Yemeni government faced a crisis of legitimacy during the Arab spring.
Even if you are right, which doesn't look like you are, then the Yemeni "government" started war with the US and other countries by attacking their ships.
I mean the US has basically at war with them for the better part of the last decade already. Also Ansar Allah did declare war on Israel.
I think you meant Saudi Arabia. There's nothing interesting there in Yemen for the US government. They only decided to provide a response after one of Iranian/Houthi rockets was fired at their ship.
The US supported Saudi Arabia in their bombing campaign and also participated in the blockade of Yemen.
This is the same "international recognition" that doesn't consider Taiwan to be a legitimate government?
International recognition isn't worth shit. Ansarallah has de facto control over the vast majority of Yemen's territory. Just as the ROC is the government of Taiwan, Ansarallah is the government of Yemen.
Thank you for providing a good example! I'm really not sure what the status of Taiwan's Sovereignty would be, but it's definitely something to think about.