this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2023
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A US appeals court Saturday paved the way for a California law banning the concealed carry of firearms in “sensitive places” to go into effect January 1, despite a federal judge’s ruling that it is “repugnant to the Second Amendment.”

The law – Senate Bill 2 – had been blocked last week by an injunction from District Judge Cormac Carney, but a three-judge panel filed an order Saturday temporarily blocking that injunction, clearing the path for the law to take effect.

The court issued an administrative stay, meaning the appeals judges did not consider the merits of the case, but delayed the judge’s order to give the court more time to consider the arguments of both sides. “In granting an administrative stay, we do not intend to constrain the merits panel’s consideration of the merits of these appeals in any way,” the judges wrote.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 58 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (35 children)

I'm sure gun people will be pissed at me for this, but wanting to have a concealed gun on you doesn't really make much sense to me if guns are supposed to be a deterrent. You aren't deterring anyone with your gun if no one knows you have it. Shouldn't you want to wear it where everyone can see it so they know not to try anything funny?

[–] ArgentRaven@lemmy.world 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (13 children)

I don't think guns are supposed to be a deterrent. Someone running to mug you isn't thinking clearly about the possible complications or repercussions.

A carried gun is a commitment to kill someone before you are killed in a life or death situation. Not too feel cool or show off, or brandish as a warning.

Plus if you dress like a cowboy, someone might try to mug you FOR that gun, making you a bigger target.

That's all pretty heavy, and the odds are low that you'd encounter that situation. So not a lot of people are willing to complicate their lives for it.

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[–] skydivekingair@lemmy.world 28 points 10 months ago (1 children)

The deterrent is the uncertainty of who may and may not have a gun on them. A lot of self defense is making yourself a harder target, the knowledge that a firearm might come into play and the victim may be proficient at using it makes anyone and everyone a harder target. It doesn’t mean desperate criminals won’t still make a move, but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago (10 children)

Again, it is already uncertain who may and may not have a gun on them.

but it should decrease the number of crimes attempted.

Is there any data to that effect or is that just wishful thinking?

[–] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

There's not good data on anything related to guns and it's frustrating.

Intuitively it makes sense that if there might be a bear in the woods some people aren't going to go into the woods because they're afraid of getting mauled by a bear. It almost certainly has an effect, but quantifying it is going to be hard and subject to bias and the real effect will always be subject to other unrecorded factors (e.g. maybe when they tested one group the bears were hibernating).

I personally don't think many people who aren't into gun culture or traumatized by guns give much thought to whether or not someone is going to have a gun in XYZ place ... which probably translates to a lot of crimes of passion or desperation (e.g. I need drug money so I'm going to go rob this gas station).

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 8 points 10 months ago

I personally don’t think many people who aren’t into gun culture or traumatized by guns give much thought to whether or not someone is going to have a gun in XYZ place … which probably translates to a lot of crimes of passion or desperation (e.g. I need drug money so I’m going to go rob this gas station).

Very well said and I am in agreement.

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[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 26 points 10 months ago

The deterrent is supposed to be the possibility of armed people. The idea is supposed to be that allowing people to legally carry concealed weapons means that any potential victim might have a gun.

On the other hand, many gun owners who support concealed carry oppose open carry for several reasons.

First off, they don't want to make them or their gun a target. They don't want someone trying to steal their gun, and they don't want to flag themselves as the first target for any kind of attack.

But another huge reason is that they feel like the only reason to carry openly in public is to make a political statement and carry around an implied threat. Most people who carry concealed consider themselves pretty normal people and they aren't interested in making statements or threatening others. They just carry a gun.

I'll occasionally carry my target postil concealed just to keep the gun secure while transporting it. It's usually in a safe at the house, but when I'm going to the range or leaving town I'll take it with me, and it's less-likely to get stolen off my hip than it is by having my car window smashed. Keeping it hidden on my person is just another part of firearm safety.

[–] Liz@midwest.social 24 points 10 months ago (15 children)

I know you're getting blasted with replies. It's not supposed to be a deterrent. You carry concealed so that you can defend your life with deadly force without having to walk around pretending to be a badass all the time. Carrying a gun doesn't stop crime, it stops people when they make an attempt on your life.

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[–] Codilingus@sh.itjust.works 18 points 10 months ago (34 children)

Everyone I know that carries does so concealed. They don't care about deterrents or whatever, they're just taking a precaution they hope to never use. Like being mugged or attacked. Source: Texas.

[–] Eatspancakes84@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You have far more confidence in people than I do. Hoping to never use it (except perhaps in that drunk fight with my neighbour)? I wouldn’t trust anyone who carries guns on the extremely remote probability that it will help them in a shooting/robbery.

[–] Liz@midwest.social 5 points 10 months ago (1 children)

If you're drunk and carrying a gun you're doing it very wrong.

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[–] KnightontheSun@lemmy.world 11 points 10 months ago (1 children)

A gun person might say open carry can also make you a target.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Then guns are definitely not a deterrent.

There is no such thing as a deterrent that deters people who don't know about its existence, and if you're a target by openly carrying the thing you call a deterrent, that doesn't deter people either.

So maybe the argument that guns are a deterrent should be dropped by the people who want to carry their gun concealed about their person.

[–] KnightontheSun@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Well, I believe the idea is that if you are wanting to start something and you know people are definitely carrying, but you don’t know who or how many is the deterrent.

I am not here to convince you.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago (2 children)

"I don't know if someone around me has a gun" doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent so far since that's the status quo regardless of the legality.

[–] skydivekingair@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago (7 children)

Let me start by saying I appreciate this hasn’t devolved and does seem to be a civil discussion.

The idea is most citizens are law abiding and if it is illegal to conceal carry or barred by the establishment to carry then only three types of people would be a threat to someone who intends to cause violence. First a law enforcement officer, second another person intended to break the law with a weapon and last would be an individual with the attitude’rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6’. The possibility of those types being in the vicinity is much lower than when everyone can be capable of self defense with a firearm.

There are many more nuances involved: does the person carrying have training? Can the person carrying be more of a danger than the danger their presence prevents? Is the criminal logical/smart enough to know and understand that there is a risk of an armed populace when they enact their crimes? And many more variables that can be put into play that aren’t part of this discussion.

Thanks for reading.

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[–] fsr1967@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I agree. Nukes only work as a deterrent (for example) because the countries that have them "open carry" them. A concealed-program nuke is only good for after the fact revenge on a country that attacks you or an ally/neighbor. Just like a gun.

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