this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2023
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I don't have any issues with diversity and inclusivity, and support it however I can.
But I don't really see the problem with this mod? It's a honest question, I've just read the article, and the Nexus mod answer doesn't make much sense to me. I mean there are literally mods that change every character in Skyrim to females, how is that different? (I didn't log in to see the if the mod is active, but I'm sure there's a lot of "we change this character to female" mods for any game).
And more importantly, why not let anyone do whatever they want with their game, and enjoy it however they want? Or was it similar to the Starfield pronouns mod, where the creator went on a hateful rant in the mod description, and acted like a total dick, spewing their bullshit intorelant propaganda? Then, the removal would be understandable. Otherwise, it's just counter-productive and only serves to even more divide people and turn them against eachother, and feels like an unnecessary witch-hunt and a PR stunt.
But please correct me if I'm wrong or missing something, there's probably some context that I don't have.
Nah this mod was making trans people into trans people that regretted it. They planned on removing all the people of colour because of "realism" and do other assorted fuckery. There was a long post about the group that was writing this mod, it wasn't done in good faith.
In other words, there's "let people mod whatever they like" and there's mods that are effectively a statement of an ethos, and not all ethos are worth letting your platform be used to broadcast.
There's also mods that are tools to give players more freedom, and mods that are fixes to correct what the dev sees as mistakes or shortcomings. The difference between "choose what color you want the flags to be" and "the flags are all blue now". The latter is a statement of a belief: "I think the game would be better if all the flags were blue".
The changes in this mod could be framed differently, like "gives player more granular control over NPC gender and sexuality". It could have been done in a respectful and open-ended fashion that doesn't play on harmful stereotypes. It could even be used to make the game "more gay" if the player chooses, then if some players choose to make it all "less gay", so be it. That would be fine.
But that's not what this mod is, and the intent behind it is fairly obvious. There's no reason to pussyfoot around this one with arguments about player freedom, that wasn't why it was made.
100%. Sometimes I don't know if that concept is maybe to hard to get for some or if they actively choosing not to understand.
Yeah well those types are arguing for the sake of making a show for bystanders and wear down their interlocutor than to have a honest discussion. Just look at their best (shen bapiro) and how the dude is arguing. It's all in bad faith. They play the card of being innocent and inquisitive, try to uphold the free speech and stuff like that...and it's all in bad faith.
Or the people arguing here for the "freedom" of installing this mod.
I mean feel free, just not available from nexusmod.
I care. Pretending intent doesn't matter just allows the hatred this mod creator has to grow. They didn't make that change in good faith, it's a common dog whistle for right wing bigots. Around 1% regret transition, and often because of backlash from those around them, not because they're not trans.
When someone's intent is to criticize and invalidate a trans person's very existence, I care. And obviously plenty of people do since the mod was removed.
Seems like it just gave it even more attention to me. I don’t even play the game as it looks lame as shit and boring to me but now I know about this mod lol. And surely I can still go seek it out and download it easily if I wanted.
Well nexus mods cared. Nobody is stopping you from downloading the mod, just find another source for it
Just because the mod isn't on Nexus mod it doesn't mean the creator can't use it or share it, it just means Nexus mod finds it unacceptable and doesn't want to host it, so people can do whatever they want with their game and Nexus mod can do whatever they want with their website.
Nexus is based as hell
It will still be fringe and more inaccessible, so only people who are deeply ingrained in their bigotry and probably have no chance of opening their eyes and having empathy will seek it out, which is a huge win for everyone else.
This is not the Baldur's Gat devs dashing into the mod maker's house and holding him at gunpoint until he deletes the mod. I'd agree, that would be inappropriate.
What this is instead is the people running Nexus deciding that they don't want to be associated with this kind of content and that they are not willing to host it. If you owned a bar and it started being frequented by neo-Nazis, you'd be perfectly within your rights to kick them out, because you're a private business owner and can conduct it however you like within the bounds of the law.
Your position isn't the "live and let live" idea you think it is, because what you're in effect claiming is that the people behind Nexus should be forced to host content that they find extremely morally objectionable.
I was just surprised why did people find the mod that much offensive. I wasn't aware that the authors intent wasn't to just change one character into different gender, but to effectively purge all diversity from the game, including the racial one.
That changes my point of view, because then it makes absolute sense why you wouldn't allow someone like that on your platform. That was the context I was missing. But if I took the mod at face value, without the rest of the anti-diversity modpack this mod was made for, I still don't see an issue with wanting to change one characters gender for your own playthough, or a reason why to remove such mod from your platform, especially compared to all other "change this character to female" mods that Nexusmods is full of. But given the context, Nexusmods are in the right here, of not wanting to support someone with so blatant propaganda.
As was said, the mod author stated the goal was to reduce diversity.
There are other mods that change gender of characters that state no such thing, which are still up.
Yeah, I wasn't aware of the context of the author working on other mods like that, that are purging every diverse character from the game. I totally agree that then it shouldn't be there, I was just taking the mod at a face value and comparing it to other gender-changing mods, which still were there. Given the author's intent and rhetorics, he shouldn't be given a platform to speak.
The last time something like this happened, it was with a mod that removed the pronouns option in (IIRC) Starfield and the reason it was removed wasn't for the content of the mod, but for the content the particular mod's maker put in the description page (bunch of transphobic hate speech). Many news sites reporting on it conveniently left that part of the story out; I imagine this is just another example of that kind of shit reporting and the reason it was removed was because the mod creators were being hateful pricks in the description or forums.
Iirc, that mod also screwed up in removing them and made it so you were always using they/them pronouns.
yes, this is basically what happened with this baldurs gate mod, and this is why it was removed
Nexus isn't obliged to host your files. They're free to have the final say.
I dislike this notion that the characters in the game got to be X. But this is 100% bigotry. That's what makes it not okay. It's not the same as someone going in and making everyone a hot naked lesbian with a single click sex mod. This mod exists as a message and to hurt people.
The creator is free to self host it if they wish. But they may not host it using sites like nexus where they disagree with his message.
That's the facts. My personal opinion is irrelevant. I wish I didn't have to explain it but it's not black and white and can't be taken at face value.
I agree, Nexus isn't oblidged to host your files. I wasn't aware of the authors other mods and goal to purge diversity from the game - which makes it absolutely OK to not want him on your platform, and I agree with removing it.
But when I took the mod at a face value, without this context, I really don't see any problem with it, especially compared to all other gender changing mods on Nexus. Which made their reason not to include it seem like pandering because someone took an issue with it. Now I know that was not the case, and that there was malicious and pretty awfull intent and message behind the mod. But without that, I still think the mod would be OK, and taking it down would be unfair, just because some vocal people took issue with it - which is how the situation looked like from the article. But that's not the case, and I was mistaken, so it's solved.
Which also covers the 'but who decides?!' canard.
Nexus decides. They have rules, they try to apply them consistently, we see the results. If you disagree strongly enough then either write them to politely state your case or make your own goddamn website.
Scoffing at the fact a human being has to make judgement calls is not a moral victory, despite the smug posturing of a million right-wing trolls who might honestly believe they're not right-wing trolls. Propose whatever grey-area hypotheticals you want. Hell, put in the work, upload it for real, and see what happens. Make your hypothetical a hypothesis and test that bitch. But don't mistake the vague possibility of edge cases as proof that "Nazis fuck off" is a bad policy.
I 100% agree with everything you days. I wouldn't install this mod, but I also don't think it should be removed, at least given what I know about it.
Nexus Mods specifically has rules against these kinds of mods. It was removed for violating them. They have the right to make whatever rules they went about the content they host.
I'm curious what the rule is specifically against, now. Presumably it's against mods that reduce or remove LGBTQ content from games?
Not just LGBTQ content, but also things that race swap characters. It’s why they took down the mod that made Wyll white.
The article links to the Nexus Mods post about banning the person who uploaded it.
But not sex swapping characters, then? Because I've seen mods that do that and hang around.
Also, if the next TES game is set in Hammerfell as rumored, I suspect there will be race swapping mods and only some will be considered in violation. Because most of the characters would likely be Redguards (and thus black), and I can see people upset that the PC can be a white guy (which is how one would describe the other races of men) killing lots of black people (Hammerfell is the homeland of the Redguard, the only race of men you'd call black). So I fully expect mods to make random encounter villain groups more racially diverse, since you'd expect them to be Redguards in Hammerfell about as often as they were Nords in Skyrim (aka most of the time) and I can see that being too many black people being killed without comment for some people to be comfortable.
Either that or for Bethesda to do it themselves, and come up with some explanation why mysteriously the natives aren't mooks very often just to avoid the bad press.
It sounds like it wasn't the content of the mod, but the description text that got it banned.
In that text the author exposed his bigoted intentions.
There are tons of gender swap / dialog change mods.
Their desires are no less valid than ours.
Not sure what you mean? I was simply clarifying the reason for deletion.
Regarding their desires, sure, that's fine, but it's the nexus mod's platform and they have no obligation to host content they disagree with, regardless of validity of reason.
Just like how Facebook has no obligation to display democrat talking points? They can filter and supress how they please. What's wrong with that, right?
We gotta come to some kind of agreement about mass media and the way they control everyone's lives. Websites with a certain level of influence gotta be held accountable as avenues of speech.
Wtf man yes! A private entity has no obligation to host speech of others that they disagree with.
It is not their fault that clowns get confused about the narrative, and it's not nexus' fault that bigots can't find mods they want.
So where do I get my news? If everyone on every platform just just demonizing and censoring their opposition, what's fair? Am I supposed to just stoop to that bullshit myself? If that's the way, we're never gonna overcome the interests of the rich.
I think we gotta draw a line between private entities. There's a good difference between a single person or club and huge outlets like Facebook and Nexus mods. How do we articulate the distinction?
I'm not saying it was against their rules, I'm saying their rules kinda suck if they led them to remove this.
Imo, only mods that spread malware or hate (and maybe some other categories I'm missing) should be removed. This doesn't do either. I think it's a stupid mod and I'd never use it, but that doesn't mean it should be stricken from the platform.
But I agree, at the end of the day, they can remove whatever they want, I just think the rule sucks.
It does spread hate by erasing a queer character from a game. It spreads hate by shielding the exact people who should be exposed to queer people and learn to be empathetic towards their struggles from it.
I think that's a stretch in this case. The stated goal is to make the game match medieval social norms, and the game is a medieval themed fantasy game. An openly lesbian core character breaks that immersion.
Now, if they removed homosexuality entirely from the game, I could see your point. AFAIK, the player can still have homosexual relationships and RP in any way they want, only one core character switches from a woman to a man.
I wouldn't install it, nor would I recommend it to anyone, but I honestly don't see any hate here.
They said they want to create a “positive modding community,” and nothing about a mod like that is positive. No one is obliged to host hate.
And nothing about this seems negative or hateful. Do you think changing a character to be homosexual is somehow negative or hateful? What about just switching their gender? Race? At what point does it become negative or hateful?
That said, I haven't used this mod and I'm largely reacting to the headline here, so I could very well be missing something important. But if it's just changing a character from LGBT to cis or whatever (or vice versa), I see no hate. AFAIK, nothing in it is saying being gay is bad or wrong.
I agree overall, but as hard as it may be to prove, I think it comes down to intent. A mod based on hate has no place on Nexus (even though I'm sure they still exist). Replacing a gay character with another is fine in my opinion generally speaking, but replacing them specifically because you hate gay people and you want to erase them from the game is not. The mod author is a hate filled person who intended to do a lot more based on bigotry, and he was loud and proud of that fact. He could have slipped under the radar easily by having another outlook and not being blatantly hateful.
You are right, I wasn't aware of the context - the authors goal to just eradicate diversity from the game, and that makes it perfectly ok of not wanting to have someone like that on your platform. But taking the mod at a face value, I didn't see what's the fuss about, now I get it.
I wouldn't use this, but it's fine as long as there another mod for me to increase the gayness of it all.
The whole point of mods to get the perfect gayness level for the individual player. Some want none of it. Some wants a ton of it. I just want Thomas the Tank Engine replacing all sexy men and women.
Increasing the gayness is one thing, removing all of it is queer erasure which is bigotry. Gay people face rejection from 9 out of 10 potential partners every single day. If even one person changes their mind about gay people because they were forced to be rejected by this gay character and it opened their eyes, then that's a huge win for civilized society and equality.
Because the general mindset right now is not liberty of having your own opinion but to push in the opposite direction of what was thought years ago. And that's the problem with extremist thinking it does not care for balance only extreme posture for either one side or the other.