this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
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Past week, been seeing a lot of anti liberal stuff on lemmy. So, you've got people from the outside trying to destabilize the u.s. saying, both sides are the same, democrats are just as bad as Republicans. This creates a scenario that created Trump becoming president in the 1st place. It's done on purpose.
Now, I understand that democrats, liberals aren't perfect. But we have one side trying to set up detention camps, threatening to kill political rivals, consumed with hate. Other side trying at least to be better people.
I'm asking honestly, I would like to learn. Why is the both sides mindset becoming so prevalent?
Liberalism is used, cynically (imo), as a cudgel, to vote against real progressive politics. We can't have healthcare-for-all because we have to pick the side that isn't insane or else we get the insane group. And so on, and so on…
Look at how the Biden admin endorses genocide in Gaza. They completely ignore the masses of protesters calling for a ceasefire. How can they get away with this? "The other side is worse."
A truly responsive party would not stick its thumb in the eye of the people. It's not that both sides are equally awful. It's that both are awful and one uses the other to retain power.
Yes but the problem is despite all their blustering online, people only actually engage at the endgame stage of politics. All these "ideologically pure" leftists are doing jackshit to either ensure progressive leftist ideals win out over liberal ideals in the currently viable sorta left-presenting party or to support independent leftist political parties and groups in down-ballot, local elections, and community policy projects. No, instead these oh-so-great morally-superior "real leftists" instead want to bitch and moan about futility and then opt-out on big voting day while spouting virtues as if their behavior doesn't prevent real progressive change for the better, incremental though it may be.
And to very clear, I'm not taking the "fall in line or get out of the way" democrat bullshit stance here. If you really believe in the policy and values of a third party, please vote for them. I will never accuse an involved voter of throwing a vote away. I'm specifically talking about the large chunk of the left who are only left in theory, not practice, the ideological cosplayers who pretend anything less than absolute is not worth fighting for but who don't put in any effort to ensure that what they want even ever has a chance of ending up on the ballot in front of them.
It's easy to stand on virtue and say you won't support the lesser of two evils, but unless you're actively working on an alternative, the simple fact is that your abstained position enables the worst-case scenario which will have real-world impact. If we believe in leftist ideals, we should believe in reasonable harm reduction where possible. Same applies here.
I see this as a terminally-online thing personally. The folks who walk the walk at a local level don't tend to spend the time arguing with folks about it on Twitter because they've got real outlets for political action. Therefore, their reach is far lower - if you're not in that local community, you probably wouldn't know they exist at all.
A lot of the most annoying castigating on Twitter imo comes from people who are overwhelmed by big problems, or are genuinely marginalized/traumatized in some way, but don't have an outlet IRL to take action and therefore the Internet takes its place. It's formed like an attempt at online political action, but really it's venting. And considering that social media platforms are incentivized to widely spread ideas that make people angry - because that boosts engagement - it's worth considering their reach online is much, much wider than people posting about measures on their local ballots, or organizing locally, etc.
I think of my friend Val, who teaches self-defense and organizes for collective defense of queer folks and their families. She's just about the most sincere lefty I've ever met, and she's not even remotely online because she has no need to be - her people are around her. I aim to take a page out of that book tbh.
I don't disagree with you, but I do think it's worth considering that there might be vastly more chronically online people than you think.
I don't really have a sense for how common they are across the board - but ofc lots of folks are. I was myself at one point, and still am to some extent but in a much healthier way I think. It's certainly something that can change over time and I think more and more people are experiencing social media burnout. I try to be optimistic because if there's hope for me there's hope for everyone else.
And it also means that I'm constantly surprised at the number of people I meet near me who are engaged and doing things for the community and I just wouldn't have seen em online.
To quote Vaush: "If the choice is between 99% Hitler and 100% Hitler, you choose 99% Hitler. Full stop."
better yet, don't quote vaush
well why not.. that seems like a pretty good representation of progressive/"liberal" rhetoric.
For reference, I believe that the dem/republican electoral pattern is basically a hostage situation. The Republicans are honest about being horrible, the Dems pretend not to be and use the threat of Republicans to get their way. But like, this pattern is not leading us anywhere good. at some point you have to stop cooperating even if the hostages might get hurt, or you just lose anyway. (Though that's easier for me to say I have no family and am more or less suicidally depressed. But the alternative is business as usual until the next even more desperate situation)
point is, democrats are better, and if you are going to argue this, try not being decently-off and white.
Wrong.
If your choice is two Hitlers, you kill both the fuckers. Full stop.
There is always another option, you don't have to accept shit.
No number of rights make a wrong and no number of wrongs make a right. That's not to suggest that there aren't generations of all of us that have made the best of what they could do. You have to hold to the ideal. It's incredibly popular to shit on everything because it's the internet.
The words worth fighting and dying for: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Because people are tired of having to choose between shit and poison.
Staying in the middle is a bad idea, the truth is that both sides are bad but one of them is undeniably much worse, though I can’t really blame people shitting on Democrats. As long as they still vote against Republican, obviously.
gunna have to agree, having to eat shit may suck, but at least i'll live to tell the tale
Yeah this is pretty much where I am. I think Democrats could be better of course, but I don't mind how much anyone shits on them so long as they still vote against Republicans.
If we want things to get better, things have to, well, get better. We have to clean up a filthy house before we can live in a clean one. And we'll want to clean up the worst of the filth first, which means living with the lesser filth for a while.
Let's be more honest. Both sides are horrible.
Yes, one side is "trying to set up detention camps, threatening to kill political rivals, consumed with hate". The other side isn't trying to better people. The vast majority (there are a handful of exceptions) of people in politics are trying to gain power and money for themselves and for their friends.
The biggest difference is that they haven't yet crossed the line into actively trying to destroy our democracy.
That's certainly enough reason to support that side over the other one. But it's not the "good side".
Bunch of career politician parasites the lot of them.
Their only interest is in getting re-elected. If it can't be fixed in four years, it won't get done because it's the next guy's problem.
Both sides ARE bad, but one side is blatantly evil. I was hoping that rise of the internet would make more people aware of it, but somehow it got worse. After 2004 election, I was convinced that the voters will start making a more informed decision, but 2016 proved me wrong.
One side who supports detention camps at home and the other side who supports detention camps abroad.
Fucking wonderful choices we have here.
Gee I wonder why people are tired of neolibralism
I have investigated my views and come to the conclusion I'm always right.
True. Also liberals are better than fascists.
People who are either trying to help shift the window further right, or fucking morons who are fascist apologists
Both of those
You mean the Democrats/Liberals who still have detention camps and support the genocide in Gaza?
To answer your question, what is meant by "both parties are the same" is that neither side has any interest in solving the root causes of virtually every issue within the country and abroad. Democrats and Republicans put the interests of the wealthiest and the preservation of capitalism ahead of all else. It's a bit unfair to say that everything the parties publicly fight over is a distraction from the conflict between the ultra rich and everyone else when fascism can and does create horrible outcomes for the less privileged. But it's certainly a convenience for Democrats to be able to say, "at least we're not Trump" while offering nothing else to those suffering under the constant shift to the right.
This, they've basically been running on "not trump", sorry that's not good enough for me.
Your alternative is Trump. There isn't a third option at this point. So if not Trump isn't good enough for you...then actual Trump is? Your logic is bad, you should feel bad.
There are alternatives, we had Bernie running twice, Marianne Williamson, Cornell West, Howie Hawkins, etc... but the Democratic party actively works against them.
Granted, out of two options, not trump is better, but it's still not good enough. If the choice was to have no food, or to have some food but still not enough.
I would still choose to have some food over no food but saying my logic is bad for saying that the options available still aren't good enough isnt particularly helpful. We can demand better while still not choosing the worst option.
Thank you.
there no need from outside to destabilize murica. You people are doing it by yourselves by keep voting for shit and shit lite®
This is a pro shit sentiment.
I truly believe it came about as a result of the loss of the fairness doctrine (thanks piece of shit Reagan) or at least that was part of it. And as a result, Fox News and other garbage like OANN provides absolutely no balanced viewpoints-it's just alt right garbage with outright lies.
CNN doesn't either in the sense it was purchased by a Trump supporter and now presents "both sides" by having Trump's dumb ass on there.
Billionaires know this; it's why arseholes like Elon Husk bought Twitter so they could control the both sides narrative and push anyone that could be "left" into a stupid centrist position.
The biggest ranters get the most attention. People who are calm and centered tend not to post.
Or, when they do, are too unengaging for the average person to care to read. People want easily digestible and relatable turmoil, controversy, etc.
Democrat =/= liberal
Most of the democrats you see in politics are center right conservatives