Breaking with EU on sanctions against trade with Russia is a huge development, and it's not even winter yet. I expect that most European countries will start trying to find common ground with Russia by the time spring rolls around.

[–] Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I don't buy it. In the case of Netherlands, they are more likely trying to secure fertilizer shipments. Remember those farmer protests they had? Now imagine that, but if they don't have fertilizer.

It's basically just a business deal between two national bourgeoise. It is unlikely it will improve the situation for the commoners either in Netherlands or Russia.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's precisely the point, countries in Europe need commodities from Russia. For Netherlands it's fertilizer, for others it's steel, aluminum, gas, oil, and so on. Europe needs Russia to function. People are starting to figure this out. There are anti NATO protests happening in a bunch of countries as we speak.

[–] Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Europe needs Russia to function

Not quite

countries in Europe need commodities from Russia.

This is more correct. But the two ideas are not necessarily tied

[–] CountryBreakfast@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 years ago

Sure. But what this means is that Europe must go its own way to maintain what sovereignty it has. It can't just go along with the US unless there is a clear and quick path towards regime change in Russia. Right now, it is easy to say they don't need Russia to function because it isn't quite winter. The protests will probably increase. Every second that passes the two ideas become more closely tied. I'm not sure that individual European nations will quickly begin to betray western civilization, but something has to give. Europe will either be the property of US capital, will plunge into unhinged fascist violence, or it will give in to the Eurasia's drift towards interconnectivity. We may see some nations chose one path while others chose another, causing a powder keg situation in Europe yet again.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They're more tied than you might expect. People in Europe have become accustomed to a certain standard of living. They're seeing their living conditions collapsing right now because of the trade war with Russia. This affects every aspect of life.

For example, cheap Russian energy was the basis for European industry. Without it, companies are already starting to move production to places like China. This means factories are closing and people are losing their jobs. Since goods are no longer produced locally, they have to be imported at higher prices. Bills for stuff like heating and gas are going up, and so on.

As the living conditions continue to deteriorate people are starting to riot and protest which leads to society being unable to function.

[–] Sal@mander.xyz 5 points 2 years ago (3 children)

People in Europe have become accustomed to a certain standard of living. They’re seeing their living conditions collapsing right now because of the trade war with Russia.

I am a person in Europe. Sure, there has been some price inflation. But seeing our "living conditions collapsing" sounds like a stretch.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It hasn't been that long yet, and inflation is already in double digits across Europe with no signs of stopping. While you personally might not be affected, I imagine this is a big problem for a lot of people as evidenced by all the protests. And the real effects of all this will likely be felt in spring when current energy reserves are projected to run out.

[–] Sal@mander.xyz 4 points 2 years ago

Other people living in Europe have shared their own experiences here, and their lives have been significantly affected by it already. So it is clear that my experience is not representative. I am not worried about my own living conditions this coming spring, but I also understand that I am privileged in many, many ways - and my perspective is much narrower than I would like.

[–] Shaggy0291@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 2 years ago

I'm also a European. Inflation and energy prices where I'm at are actually stupendous. There's currently mass movements in place to simply boycott paying energy bills its gotten so bad.

[–] coldhotman@nrsk.no 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm a person in Europe, in a country that has been described as "The richest country in the world". I'd absolutely say my standards of living have collapsed, in large part due to the prices of electricity.

I would not be surprised if there were demonstrations or riots during the winter, although I don't expect it.

[–] Sal@mander.xyz 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I am very sorry to hear that. I genuinely hope that you use the word "collapse" in a more liberal way than I do. I am saying I hope and not implying that you do, and I definitely don't say this in any way trying to minimize or disregard your pain and suffering. I wish the best to you and your family, and hopefully the projections that Yσɠƚԋσʂ has mentioned about what is to come by Spring turns out to not materialize.

[–] coldhotman@nrsk.no 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Standards of living collapsing is not related to the collapse of society at large, so there's a big chance we use the words in different ways. One way of putting it in perspective is that I've never could afford taking baths. Now I can't afford showers.

[–] Sal@mander.xyz 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I definitely consider a change to not being able to afford showers a collapse of the standard of living. That sucks, and your experience is definitely a powerful counter-example to my experience.

I try to keep a realistic perspective about my own privileged conditions, and I am well-aware that relative to the whole world I am incredibly privileged. But I might be underestimating my level of privilege within Europe.

[–] coldhotman@nrsk.no 3 points 2 years ago

I try to keep a realistic perspective about my own privileged conditions, and I am well-aware that relative to the whole world I am incredibly privileged.

This is why I'm not personally all that bothered. I got a bucket and hot water in the heater. I'm also lucky and thankful to live in a country with a fantastic social security system, so if I can't afford electricity at all the state will help me out.

I don't think there's a chance I'll freeze or starve to death this winter, and that's a luxury many people don't have. Even if I have nothing, I'm still better off than 95% of the world.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Netherlands trade with Russia actually risen by 32% since war started, their exports to Russia fallen by 52% while imports from Russia risen by 74%. The article i linked is pretty interesting. NYT, basically official press of USA regime, is openly stating the sanctions fell flat on face.

[–] Shaggy0291@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 2 years ago

Don't suppose anyone has an unpaywalled version of the article?

[–] Shrike502@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

their exports to Russia fallen by 52% while imports from Russia risen by 74%

That's kind of what I mean, yes? They're importing quite a lot, presumably in exchange for currency - as suggested by the falling exports. And what happens to said currency? It cannot be spent (due to sanctions and other factors). It just gets stashed away to keep the ruble value artificially low. And then gets burned away or locked out.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

Like 3/4th of the world still accepts western money from Russia.