Second, I am annoyed because I see this as a lack of respect for my digital rights. There was option to maintain both images or showing visibility to the other one.

Third, projects such as H-Node show that integration and help with the ecosystem could have worked by showing compatible hardware in first hand.

Forth, Debian was never for newbies and not for that, but because people don't read manuals. A different aproach would have been educational promotion of the existing Debian manuals before even downloading and even focusing on usability and accesibility to them. Maybe even creating simple English version or a reduced set by chapters.

Fifth, any user should know which hardware is using and get familiar with it. The out of the box concept many people promote leads to the believe of black boxes as solution. A mixed approach is also an option by using H-Node for example.

This could have contributed to the following:

showing visibility to other projects working towards getting hardware work with free software.
helping new users to find such a hardware instead of falling in the fallacy of "If you don't see it, it doesn't exist".
contributing to the digital illiteracy lacked by even medium range users of GNU/Linux family and almost all in a general sense using a computer.
respecting the digital rights of people instead of making a false declaration of failure.
this also derivates in being example for other projects towards getting or developing free software used in hardware such as firmware.
you still fit the purposes of the other part by setting the additional image in the most needed cases.

[–] poVoq 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

This is not how on boarding of new users works. If you put up a RTFM wall and intentionally make their installation fail they either just stick with Windows or use another more newbie friendly distro.

And Debian is a community driven distribution. It needs new users (who to a small percentage become contributors) all the time or it can't survive.

Edit: also I don't see how this is disrespecting your digital rights. If you feel so strongly about the issue you surely made your homework and only run hardware with libre firmware, so this has absolutely no effect on you.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

If you think I am throwing a RTFM I think you are not even reading the first part of my comment. So, in order to understand me correctly, I recommend you to read it carefully part by part.

I don't see how the second parragraph applies wrongly here.

About your edition, I am unsure if you understand how rights exist. A right, or mostly a natural right while not being guaranteed, is deducible from inalienable interests. These are interests born of aware individuals and are as basic as "I need to eat".

In this digital world, other inalienable interests are born, and new rights deduced from them. The "4 freedoms" about the software are no more than a build of these rights in the same way the letter of the human rights try to do the same. That is all, no more complex than that.

Rights are also not based on claim. An individual should not claim every time they want their right guaranteed, that is plainly impossible with all individuals. Rights are guaranteed first and get available even before you need them.

By loading, trying and executing propietary software in the devices I use you are violating these rights.

There are manufacturers doing that? Sure. That makes my fight useless because I already could have that being executed? No and pointing to that is a Nirvana fallacy itself: "as you are in shit, doesn't matter what you do because everything would be like that".

[–] poVoq 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No my last point was different. At no point is Debian forcing you to use these non-Free firmwares. They are a purely optional inclusion in their installer for those people that do need to use them to get a functional system. Thus your digital rights are not negatively impacted at all.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

First of all, thank you for the clarification.

Related to the inclusion of the installer, that is not what they meant AFAIK. The idea is loading and executing it when applicable, even if it is not needed (RTL 8188EE is an example) as was discussed previously in other voting or mailing list which I need to check.

Edited: it is also supported because, in offers to load the firmware, you must do it at boot time for the initialization of the hardware.

[–] poVoq 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Granted there are some rare edge cases where both options exist, but after installing Debian you are free to revert any such non-Free firmware on your actual system.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

you are free to revert any such non-Free firmware

That is not how granting a right works. Damage of it is already made and no, there is no such thing as rare cases.

Additionally, the big part of the hardware in H-Node has non-free firmware available in the respective package, also embedded on boot.

[–] poVoq 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I think you somehow maneuvered yourself into a illogical position without realizing it?

Including some optional firmwares in the install boot-medium infringes zero rights of yours and none of the 4 software freedoms are impacted by this.

Complain with the hardware vendors for making these firmwares a requirement if you will, but better not buy such hardware in the first place. But Debian absolutely did the right thing here to their current and future users by optionally including these non-free firmwares regardless of what some ideological demagogues say.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

regardless of what some ideological demagogues say

I never pointed to you with ad hominems. Refrain to do that next time.

It is not my fault that you think that I am backed or not by some people like that, nor I should be the victim for such a case.

[–] poVoq 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I didn't mean you personally with that, sorry if that was not clear.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

It is okay then :3

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Including some optional firmwares in the install boot-medium infringes zero rights of yours and none of the 4 software freedoms are impacted by this.

Loading at boot time the firmware involves execution in applied hardware of software I have no power in.

Complain with the hardware vendors for making these firmwares a requirement if you will, but better not buy such hardware in the first place.

Doesn't exclude that Debian did the worse thing. Options existed as I introduced before, and very obvious ones. If they needed help, I have no issues to provide it.

[–] poVoq 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Only if you run hardware that requires it. That is not the fault of Debian and making this hardware available for use is better than not doing it.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

poVoq, I already explained how that works. Almost all the hardware can load it and it is done automatically, not based on an H-Node list to know if it works without it or not, which could be an option. If it is available, will be loaded and executed with compatible hardware.

Debian doesn't have the fault for what the hardware vendors do, but has the fault for enforcing the situation when other options existed.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Rewording this:

A proposal I would accept is loading based in H-Node list to know if it works with it or not (a similar thing has been done with Linux-Libre but for enforcing not loading it). I would accept that, and I would give the option at boot time itself.

[–] poVoq 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The majority of the hardware either requires it, or it doesn't. It is the rare edge case that it can also work in a degraded mode using only Free software, and you are free to not use such firmwares on your system after installing Debian on it. But yes in the 30 minutes or so that you use the installer it will be auto-loaded helping a lot of users actually install an running system and inflicting no damage to you at all.

[–] Echedenyan@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I think you don't understand what is even an inalienable interest, a right and which are the rights violated here. Yes, there is damage, in freedom.

There is no rare thing for hardware in H-Node working. I would like you to check it and availability. It is less, but it is not a rare case.

The option may exists based on such a list and any of the both sides would be affected negatively. In the same way it saves you time or impossibility in some cases, it would prevent my rights being harmed and save my time yet.

It would involve an initial effort in development, that is right. This would also help more for these rights that failing in the way is doing right now.

[–] poVoq 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I disagree that it removes any Freedom from you, but even if that were the case the damage would be so minuscule compared to the massive improvement for others that literally could not even install Debian on their system before.

And sure, there might be possible complicated work-arounds, but this issue has existed for years and no one bothered to implement them. So finally the silent majority took the right step to make this minimal impact change, and now the ball is really back with those complaining about this change. I am sure Debian will not be opposed to include some sort of selection in the boot process if someone would actually implement it, but that is far from trivial to do.